Being an avenger - civil war
Hiii! I’ve recently been on a marvel binge, unfortunately I’m VERY late to the party so I apologize if I’m beating an already dead, 6 feet under horse. But I’m watching civil war right now and I’ve watched a couple other movies and I’m curious about the opinions of people.
I totally understand the issue at hand of the fact that in their efforts to save people, sometimes they can’t save everybody and people still get hurt or even worse die and so what is the work of the avengers worth if it still results in a sizable number of people being harmed right?
So then the accords. I am conflicted. On one hand I get it, I do think having something to hold them accountable could be helpful. Do I think any government should be responsible for that..? No LOL. Idgaf if 117 countries want to sign it. But can we also be so for real… they’re fighting intergalactic battles 💀💀 aside from wakanda what can these other nations do bc everytime something happens they’re useless without the enhanced people butting in. Captain made a good point of if the UN decided they could or could not go somewhere where the opposite was necessary, what then? Also without them what was going to be their response to the world ending events that happened? Just nuke it and hope for the best? 💀
I just think it’s frustrating because yes I understand that innocent people end up being collateral in these situations and that’s the main problem but it’s funny because if the rolls were switched and the loved ones that died, instead survived, the tune would be different. It’s so easy to blame the avengers for their grief instead of the crazy people causing the mess (though ultron/sokovia was stark’s fault so sorry). Vision’s “equation” captured it best that with the increase in enhanced people, the more people want to challenge them/that power, hence chaos and conflict but what can they do about it..?
So my question I guess is what do other people think? If you were a superhero and you were in this position, what would your choice be?
I totally understand the issue at hand of the fact that in their efforts to save people, sometimes they can’t save everybody and people still get hurt or even worse die and so what is the work of the avengers worth if it still results in a sizable number of people being harmed right?
So then the accords. I am conflicted. On one hand I get it, I do think having something to hold them accountable could be helpful. Do I think any government should be responsible for that..? No LOL. Idgaf if 117 countries want to sign it. But can we also be so for real… they’re fighting intergalactic battles 💀💀 aside from wakanda what can these other nations do bc everytime something happens they’re useless without the enhanced people butting in. Captain made a good point of if the UN decided they could or could not go somewhere where the opposite was necessary, what then? Also without them what was going to be their response to the world ending events that happened? Just nuke it and hope for the best? 💀
I just think it’s frustrating because yes I understand that innocent people end up being collateral in these situations and that’s the main problem but it’s funny because if the rolls were switched and the loved ones that died, instead survived, the tune would be different. It’s so easy to blame the avengers for their grief instead of the crazy people causing the mess (though ultron/sokovia was stark’s fault so sorry). Vision’s “equation” captured it best that with the increase in enhanced people, the more people want to challenge them/that power, hence chaos and conflict but what can they do about it..?
So my question I guess is what do other people think? If you were a superhero and you were in this position, what would your choice be?
Commentaires
Tony's arc has been very much about his arrogance and desire to do what he wants causing problems that he needs to solve with reliance on other people who are pissed at him and their systems and perspectives over and over, until he once again does whatever he wants. He loves making guns, then he sees his guns kill lots of people, so he builds a suit of armor to stop the guns, and the guy he's making guns with tries to kill him with his own armor, and Tony's armor's not good enough to beat his partner's armor, so he needs Pepper to help him beat the other armor. He thinks he's the smartest, Vanko outsmarts him, so he needs SHIELD and Rhodey and Pepper to take out Vanko and he gives Rhodey some armor. He brags about being untouchable, then Killian slaps him around with advanced tech until Pepper mercs Killian with his own tech.
Then in Civil War, a mother comes to him and reminds him that his arrogance and desire to do what he wants causes lots of problems, so he decides to solve it with a reliance on other people who are pissed at him and their systems and perspectives once and for all by submitting himself to the representatives of all humanity.
Steve's arc is a guy who wants to join a team and be part of something bigger to serve society losing everything to the systems he's supposed to serve, giving up, and deciding to only work with people he has personal relationships with to serve his whims. The military won't let him join, but he proves his worth and the military makes him the coolest soldier, but they won't let him save his friend, so he goes rogue, and then he sacrifices himself to save everybody. The guys he worked with in the military team up with the guys he was fighting and who kidnapped and brainwashed his best friend, so he destroys the whole organization and lies to protect his friend. Then his new friends keep dropping cities on people, but since the world doesn't trust his new friends, Steve tells the world to go screw themselves and get used to cities dropping on their heads.
Then in Civil War, Tony tells him they should be part of something bigger to serve society, and Steve decides to only work with people he has personal relationships with to achieve his goals because "Power is better in OUR hands."
And then in Infinity War, Steve says "We don't trade lives" and refuses to sacrifice his friends, so half the universe gets wiped out. By Endgame it becomes, "Whatever it takes."
In the movies, it’s like you both said: people with an agenda telling the avengers where to go and not to go is a *bad* idea. Look no further than Avengers 1 where they were going to *nuke the entirety of New York*. These people cannot be left to make these decisions. Bet dollars to donuts they would hold the Avengers back more than they would let them loose in smaller scale things (I.e. international). Of course they would let them take care of things like Thanos but on a global scale, it’d be nothing but bureaucratic red tape, nonsense, and posturing.
In the comics, the accords are the Superhuman Registration Act and he has a point there too. Super people have secret identities in the comics to protect themselves and especially their loved ones and forcing them to register is an act of a tyrannical, even fascist government. Did it go too far when supers started fighting each other? Definitely, but Cap ultimately surrendered for that very reason. He never gave up on his side, he never registered, he just noticed that in the government trying to enforce their bullshit law and the unregistered trying to protect themselves, the general civilian population was suffering.
Cap in any medium has never been wrong imo. He’s just stuck true to his beliefs to the point that he had to back it up with his fists because he was forced to by a government trying to get their way by treating and using enhanced people like tools instead of people.
https://philebersole.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/captain-america-was-a-new-deal-democrat/
That said, I would be careful saying "Cap in any medium has never been wrong" because there have been some jingoistic bullshit versions of him too. Steve Rogers generally has been a liberal Democrat patriot opposing fascism, but the William Burnside anti-communist McCarthy era cap was not great.
Edit: the blog post I meant to link to was this one:
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2013/10/steven-attewell-steve-rogers-isnt-just-any-hero
I guess I was talking more about the civil war event than cap himself?
I don’t know anything about the comics thanks for sharing!! I agree I don’t think they should be forced to register. I can ultimately respect Cap’s decision because I can understand why he’s against it but I do wish he considered more of a middle ground bc I feel like he of all people should be able to understand why some oversight could be beneficial or at least some other alternative. I felt like he was very rigid (Tony too but I think between the 2 Tony could’ve been open to adjustment, the fact that he just up and presented the sokovia accords with no input from anyone else aside lool)
The Avengers inspire heroism, and heroism still requires responsibility and accountability
Spiderman homecoming (if you haven't seen it yet) shows what could happen if you let people try to do good without supervision
Like ofc we know on captains side nothing is stopping them from intervening if they see it necessary but for the people who signed the accords wouldn’t the idea of being treated like a criminal bc you saved someone without permission or in saving people some other negative side effect like damage to the city be off putting?
Yes that is called responsibility. You can always stop a robbery but if you stop a robbery but explode a building, that's another story. I'm not saying the accords are perfect, but it makes sense
In homecoming, peter tried to stop an arms race but ended up which I do note "accidentally" slicing up a ferry in two, that's already a lot of damage even if nobody died because Tony arrived. He signed the accords but did he ask for permission to be there? There weren't "controlled" whatsoever
I get where Tony is coming from, I really do. Several things, though:
- Steve and the Avengers never tried to dodge responsibility for their actions. They recognized the potential for collateral damage, did their utmost to minimize it, and then helped clean up the mess every time. As Steve said, the Accords simply shifted the blame rather than actually preventing any problems.
- The logistics of getting a consensus from multiple governments on how to respond to an emergency situation on a deadline... And then add aliens.
- I love Tony so much, but I find it beyond ironic that Tony starts calling for oversight after being called out for a problem he created *when he deliberately avoided oversight.* The Avengers could have been Tony's oversight and very probably prevented the whole Ultron debacle, but Tony very specifically scoffed at the idea of putting the creation of Ultron "up for debate by the committee." And so then, after Ultron wrecks everything, Tony decides to throw not only himself, but the entire team under the bus in the name of "accountability"? *Sigh* oh, Tony, my man...
- Again, accountability is good. The Accords were not the way to do it.
So... Yeah, Team Cap.
But you’re right that the accords definitely wasn’t the way. And it could’ve definitely been the avengers overseeing themselves if Tony had stopped acting independently but I also can’t blame him ngl 😭😭 (well i do but I understand him kinda) like if I’m battling intergalactic enemies on top of whatever terrorists exist on earth I’d be paranoid too 😭😭😭 and it’s crazy he’s willing to let accords dictate them like he hasn’t seen how they’re (governments) also people he’s had to stop, but was unwilling to listen to the avengers when it counted. But I’d be lying if I said that Im 100% sure I wouldn’t also try to build something to protect people if I had the brain and money he did
Tony, on the other hand, is coming from a place of guilt and he wishes to take accountability for the team's mistakes. He wants to mitigate the possibility of future unnecessary casualties. He starts off in a noble place, but he too gets caught up in his own feelings. He wants the UN to act as a leash so he can say its not his fault when something goes wrong. He isn't really taking accountability, he's "shifting the blame." He starts out with good intentions, but then he uses those intentions as a cover for making himself look good.
I do think the Avengers could certainly do better PR, by hanging around where they've destroyed stuff and help recovery in a way more visible than Tony's money.
In Tony’s desire to have accountability because he feels guilty, he doesn’t allow the group to have input, or provide some alternative that isn’t just giving governments full authority to tell them what to do, so while I can appreciate the purpose of the accords, I didn’t like how it was handled/enacted.
But then also with Cap, while I understood him I just felt like you can’t think it’s okay for things to continue as they are with how the very people you’re trying to save are getting progressively frustrated with the destruction they contribute to that they leave for others to clean up. I wish there was more willingness to find a solution for that if the accords was out of the question
Equally within the MCU the governments of the world are often portrayed as hapless and ineffective because the writers need to justify the existence of extra-governmental superheroes. If the problems presented within the films could effectively be handled by the governments and militaries then audiences would be a lot less inclined to agree with Cap.
Oh yeah, that guy who can *literally* trap you in your own worst memories if he has a bad day... well he gets to dispense justice as he fits. Have fun!
Nvm just went to google I see why he’d switch 💀 do none of the avengers, specifically Tony, know their background? Why work with him in that case?
It does pose a political threat when a guy dressed in an American flag, named Captain America, is traveling around the world carrying out justice on his own terms.
Tony is probably a better example. A generational American weapons manufacturer who is conducting private military operations on foreign soil. UN wouldn’t be too happy if the Boeing CEO formed a little group to go fight ISIS on their own and since they exist in the jurisdiction of the USA - it’s America’s problem.
Also - the Avengers destroyed a whole fucking country because Tony was messing around with AI and made a robot who decided to kill everyone. A robot who was so unstoppable they made another robot with a cosmic power source - who wasn’t guaranteed at all to not be evil too.
As an audience we want to believe they’ll be virtuous - but virtuous to who? You can’t be on everybody’s side. And playing global police and carrying out international raids as an independent entity is very dangerous politically.
——
But now in the timeline of the movies it may be a moot point because of the power creep. The Avengers can manipulate time, travel through space, and deal with multiverse threats. But during Civil War? They were just kinda playing world police from an American mentality and from their American base with funding from an American weapons maker.
But what always leaves me split is at the end of the day I think the avengers are just more suited for the level of threat that I’ve seen them face in movies thus far. So the idea of having to rely on the people of the accords to tell them if, when and how they can handle a threat is a little absurd bc one they need to be quick and 2 these are the same people (well really the US in the movies since most things are set there) that will usually try to handle the problem through blowing something up or murder 😭
So I’m still at, they have valid points and they needed to work together and not fight 😔
Just him.
Sure, he wasn't in Lagos but overall, my point stands.
Cap's arc was to stand up for himself, trust himself, back himself, and eventually to do some selfish things for himself. That was growth for him.
Stark's arc was to become selfless. That was growth for him.
But I think when you’re operating as some independent superhuman vigilante group, oversight is necessary bc at some point the villains won’t always be obvious and they’re going to have to decide if they fight or sit back and either decision could be received poorly and that’s why I think the avengers needed _something_ yk?
Hulk or Thor? These guys were off world for a minute and Ross thinks he can just grab a few lesser powered guys?
Yelena said it best - nobody is messing with the Avengers without expecting other Avengers coming by to visit/destroy.
New York was the Chitauri, but that was brought on by the US government fucking with the tesseract.
Washington DC was directly a result of the US government being infiltrated by HYDRA.
South Africa also HYDRA.
Sokovia was all Tony.
Nigeria...well if not for HYDRA, but also a little Wanda
But note how none of it was the Avengers fault at any time?
But if you watch a show like "The Boys" you can quickly see how scary uncontrolled super powered people can be. If I recall correctly, the setup of Civil War in the comics explained things a bit better in the beginning. The disaster that precipitated it was domestic and involved children. But I hated the ending of the comic Civil War. Cap just decides he was wrong after one guy gets killed. Which just always seemed out of character to me. That Cap would be a guy who thought things and the implications and consequences through better than that.
Anyway, just my opinion. I'm glad the film winds up being less about the accords and more about the very personal fight between Steve and Tony and Bucky.
I love these heroes too much to not see that some oversight is needed. Doesn't mean they are shackled to it, but they have to play the game if they want to keep saving the people they claim to care for.
What Cap should have suggested is that they come to a compromise and negotiate the terms of the accords. That's the real blindsight here that no one considered.
Oversight should come from a panel of people picked by both the Avengers and the government's made up of people who don't want that kind of responsibility specifically so their choices will be pure without self motivation.
I think that was the compromise they were JUST about to reach when the s**t hit the fan.