Theory on Steve Rogers Causing Incursions
After rewatching some of the Infinity Saga films, reviewing all of the multiverse related films, and probably over-analyzing each teaser...a following theory came to me that I think is applicable to what we will see in Avengers: Doomsday.
**Relevant Theoretical Physics:**
https://preview.redd.it/p6df4jyhesdg1.png?width=1245&format=png&auto=webp&s=00c5c31f9131507456b0f4d0030ee779b09ed5a9
I believe the MCU will adapt the concept of brane and cyclic multiverses which fits what has been established about the multiverse thus far in prior MCU projects. Explained below (please note I'm not a physicist):
* Each universe, a space-time, is a specific membrane within the greater "bulk" which includes higher and lower dimensional spaces, with other membranes representing other universes present as well -- this totality within the bulk would be the multiverse.
* There is dark energy permeating everything but especially in between membranes across space and time. It is in a perfectly constant state acting upon space and time which allows for the controllable expansion of a universe. However, there is a unique type of dark energy known as phantom energy that rapidly accelerates the acceleration of the universe until it tears apart, and the structure of space-time would break down. This is called the "Big Rip" as space itself would dissolve as two points of any distance would infinitely rip from each other.
* In the aftermath of this universal breakdown, the state of the universe would be nearly similar to the condition of a "Big Bang" which would lead to a new universe forming but without any intact entities such as galaxy clusters.
At a high-level, the theoretical concept of the "Big Rip" is easily adaptable into Incursions or even the death of an Anchor Being. Essentially, when people travel across universes or make branched timelines in such as way they produce unnatural impacts upon space-time, it disrupts the balance between or within universes which causes an Incursion by generating mutual phantom energies that cause each universe to accelerate their expansion into each other. Alternatively, an Anchor Being has such a profound impact on their universe that when they die it generates phantom energies that eventually destroy the universe.
The resulting condition of the universe as theorized matches with the condition of Sinister Strange's universe outside of the protected area of the Sanctum. It complements the origin of Galactus and makes sense as the MCU is heading towards an IRL reboot that at a minimum will include the merging of FOX X-Men characters, locations, and events into the main MCU universe in some capacity.
Adapting this approach to the multiverse would fit the vague description provided by the Ancient One during the first *Doctor Strange* movie and also explain why certain dimensions can exist outside of space-time and be reachable from multiple universes without Incursion fears. Energy from other dimensions is channeled with sorcery yet do not trigger Incursions within the MCU which would also compliment this theory.
**MCU Multiverse 101:**
https://preview.redd.it/e0nsnnjtdsdg1.png?width=1070&format=png&auto=webp&s=a92c04b09e61b4fb75b8aaae17b5b3116ea82e3c
The MCU has several structural components that are different but easily confused. For example, timeline and universe are almost used interchangeably. I overlay a supported theories from the same physicists involved in the above information as it fits what we've seen in the MCU thus far:
* **Multiverse:** A collection of universes and dimensions.
* **Universes (Sacred Timeline):** A timeline or universe set with its own physical laws and constants. They have a superposition and objective wavefunction that can be described within the multiverse. For example, Earth-616 with the -616 being the description of its objective wavefunction. The Sacred Timeline is unique in that the TVA
* **Branched Timeline:** A parallel universe which is an extension of the primary branch, flowing the same way as the main parent universe, caused by eternal expansion of the universe and distinct changes in possibilities known as nexus events. They have the same physical constants, laws, and dimensionality as their primary branches.
* **Alternate Universes:** A branched timeline that ends up expanding to the point where it experiences an event called symmetry breaking. This is because the continued expansion of the branched timeline turned it from a symmetrical state into an asymmetric state with a new superposition. This can result in the new universe having variable diversification of physical constants, laws, and dimensionality from its parent universe. The parallel universe essentially evolves into an alternate reality.
* The sense here is that the branched timeline eventually forms sub-branches of its own as it expands and that eventually triggers the symmetry breaking event where one of those sub-branches becomes the new (separate) universe. This new separate universe does not have to flow with the prior parent universe as it becomes its own parent universe.
* **Dimensions:** An additional spatial or conceptual plane of existence that can be beyond the physical laws, properties, or spatial dimensions of a universe.
Adapting the theoretical physics mentioned above, the eternal expansion of the universe would extend to the space between universes unless disrupted by an unnatural force such as dream-walking, making universe-travelling bridges, or someone from "Universe A" making impacts towards or within "Universe B" that disrupts it.
**The Quantum Realm - Why it's Special:**
https://preview.redd.it/1903m2vzdsdg1.png?width=1300&format=png&auto=webp&s=ee5b10f576e58510774a1d6f3b9d13bfe7f5a2af
The Quantum Realm is special within the MCU because it functions as a place where an individual or object can be in a state of superposition and thus capable of exploring all possible variations of itself (branched timelines) without violating fundamental laws of physics. This would explain, at a high-level, why the Quantum Realm is outside of normal space-time and allows for the visitation of branched timelines. It's a loose interpretation of "shrinking" until you reach a state where atoms are basically in two places at once thus in a superposition.
However, the Quantum Realm should technically be limited in that it only allows travel within a single universe and not to a distinctly separate universe...unless a certain alternate universe has roots in being a branched timeline for a certain universe.
**Steve Rogers & The Branch Timeline:**
https://preview.redd.it/3dbmrn7gdsdg1.png?width=474&format=png&auto=webp&s=4ec87675662eb89fd683c0ef5f6b2ebc4cc1e708
From the teaser dedicated to Steve Rogers, he married Peggy Carter which likely made a distinct event by additionally having a son. Based on what we know from the *Agent Carter* series and *Captain America: Winter Soldier*, Peggy had a son and daughter with her future husband. Writers Markus & McFeely stated the intention was Steve always being the mystery husband but that contradicts the established logic of time travel within the MCU.
It also wouldn't align with how an elderly Peggy talked to Steve before her death -- telling him she wished Steve got to live a full life as he was looking at the picture of her with her kids. The only way to resolve the paradox would be Steve serving as a sperm donor and thus technically still the father. Peggy's husband would be a fake story to cover up the truth. SHIELD or the US Government would 100% do this in-universe to see if the super soldier serum would affect biological children. 1949 is also when the US government reactivated the Super Soldier Program.
This is where things get interesting. Steve Rogers was a stubborn man in terms of morals and likely would not have allowed the following events to take place due to his personal ties:
* Arnim Zola & secretly HYDRA scientists being recruited in August 1949 for Operation Paperclip ahead of the official founding of SHIELD.
* Bucky Barnes turned into the Winter Soldier in December 1949 after HYDRA discovers him in the custody of the Soviet Union.
Preventing these two events would be massive for the future events of the MCU as it prevents the following activities in the 1950s:
* The formation of SHIELD in 1950 with deep infiltration by HYDRA
* Infiltration of HYDRA into US Government and associated agencies like NASA
* Human experimentation on black soldiers during the Korean War to create new super soldiers (Isaiah Bradley) and most of their deaths due to serum complications and then Isaiah is captured for additional experimentation by HYDRA and the US Government
* The Vietnam War in 1955, supposedly orchestrated by HYDRA per MCU timeline
**How Steve Created an Incursion**
https://preview.redd.it/ccfpap6odsdg1.png?width=1400&format=png&auto=webp&s=facf2834fc5e8895cccfea334a88fd68c0ba34d5
Changing the above historical events and having a child are all actions that would fundamentally shift the future from the natural flow of the Sacred Timeline. I think the branched timeline caused by Steve's actions in *Avengers: Endgame* started to trend towards becoming an alternate universe. However, he disrupted this process by returning to the Sacred Timeline and returning shortly after he initially departed it. He essentially created a nexus event and then attempted to "patch" it the same way he did by returning the Infinity Stones. However, as the originator of the nexus event, I would imagine Steve carried a disproportionate amount of influence on the flow of this timeline.
Steve's actions in returning to the Sacred Timeline, after such a prolonged and presumably impactful life on the branched timeline, disrupted the expansion of the branched timeline which results in an Incursion. Since this is an Incursion involving the Sacred Timeline which has an already unnatural relationship with the rest of the multiverse, I think the reaction is an acceleration of Incursions across the multiverse that infinitely accelerates until the multiverse is completely destroyed...resulting in the birth of a new multiverse.
**Relevant Theoretical Physics:**
https://preview.redd.it/p6df4jyhesdg1.png?width=1245&format=png&auto=webp&s=00c5c31f9131507456b0f4d0030ee779b09ed5a9
I believe the MCU will adapt the concept of brane and cyclic multiverses which fits what has been established about the multiverse thus far in prior MCU projects. Explained below (please note I'm not a physicist):
* Each universe, a space-time, is a specific membrane within the greater "bulk" which includes higher and lower dimensional spaces, with other membranes representing other universes present as well -- this totality within the bulk would be the multiverse.
* There is dark energy permeating everything but especially in between membranes across space and time. It is in a perfectly constant state acting upon space and time which allows for the controllable expansion of a universe. However, there is a unique type of dark energy known as phantom energy that rapidly accelerates the acceleration of the universe until it tears apart, and the structure of space-time would break down. This is called the "Big Rip" as space itself would dissolve as two points of any distance would infinitely rip from each other.
* In the aftermath of this universal breakdown, the state of the universe would be nearly similar to the condition of a "Big Bang" which would lead to a new universe forming but without any intact entities such as galaxy clusters.
At a high-level, the theoretical concept of the "Big Rip" is easily adaptable into Incursions or even the death of an Anchor Being. Essentially, when people travel across universes or make branched timelines in such as way they produce unnatural impacts upon space-time, it disrupts the balance between or within universes which causes an Incursion by generating mutual phantom energies that cause each universe to accelerate their expansion into each other. Alternatively, an Anchor Being has such a profound impact on their universe that when they die it generates phantom energies that eventually destroy the universe.
The resulting condition of the universe as theorized matches with the condition of Sinister Strange's universe outside of the protected area of the Sanctum. It complements the origin of Galactus and makes sense as the MCU is heading towards an IRL reboot that at a minimum will include the merging of FOX X-Men characters, locations, and events into the main MCU universe in some capacity.
Adapting this approach to the multiverse would fit the vague description provided by the Ancient One during the first *Doctor Strange* movie and also explain why certain dimensions can exist outside of space-time and be reachable from multiple universes without Incursion fears. Energy from other dimensions is channeled with sorcery yet do not trigger Incursions within the MCU which would also compliment this theory.
**MCU Multiverse 101:**
https://preview.redd.it/e0nsnnjtdsdg1.png?width=1070&format=png&auto=webp&s=a92c04b09e61b4fb75b8aaae17b5b3116ea82e3c
The MCU has several structural components that are different but easily confused. For example, timeline and universe are almost used interchangeably. I overlay a supported theories from the same physicists involved in the above information as it fits what we've seen in the MCU thus far:
* **Multiverse:** A collection of universes and dimensions.
* **Universes (Sacred Timeline):** A timeline or universe set with its own physical laws and constants. They have a superposition and objective wavefunction that can be described within the multiverse. For example, Earth-616 with the -616 being the description of its objective wavefunction. The Sacred Timeline is unique in that the TVA
* **Branched Timeline:** A parallel universe which is an extension of the primary branch, flowing the same way as the main parent universe, caused by eternal expansion of the universe and distinct changes in possibilities known as nexus events. They have the same physical constants, laws, and dimensionality as their primary branches.
* **Alternate Universes:** A branched timeline that ends up expanding to the point where it experiences an event called symmetry breaking. This is because the continued expansion of the branched timeline turned it from a symmetrical state into an asymmetric state with a new superposition. This can result in the new universe having variable diversification of physical constants, laws, and dimensionality from its parent universe. The parallel universe essentially evolves into an alternate reality.
* The sense here is that the branched timeline eventually forms sub-branches of its own as it expands and that eventually triggers the symmetry breaking event where one of those sub-branches becomes the new (separate) universe. This new separate universe does not have to flow with the prior parent universe as it becomes its own parent universe.
* **Dimensions:** An additional spatial or conceptual plane of existence that can be beyond the physical laws, properties, or spatial dimensions of a universe.
Adapting the theoretical physics mentioned above, the eternal expansion of the universe would extend to the space between universes unless disrupted by an unnatural force such as dream-walking, making universe-travelling bridges, or someone from "Universe A" making impacts towards or within "Universe B" that disrupts it.
**The Quantum Realm - Why it's Special:**
https://preview.redd.it/1903m2vzdsdg1.png?width=1300&format=png&auto=webp&s=ee5b10f576e58510774a1d6f3b9d13bfe7f5a2af
The Quantum Realm is special within the MCU because it functions as a place where an individual or object can be in a state of superposition and thus capable of exploring all possible variations of itself (branched timelines) without violating fundamental laws of physics. This would explain, at a high-level, why the Quantum Realm is outside of normal space-time and allows for the visitation of branched timelines. It's a loose interpretation of "shrinking" until you reach a state where atoms are basically in two places at once thus in a superposition.
However, the Quantum Realm should technically be limited in that it only allows travel within a single universe and not to a distinctly separate universe...unless a certain alternate universe has roots in being a branched timeline for a certain universe.
**Steve Rogers & The Branch Timeline:**
https://preview.redd.it/3dbmrn7gdsdg1.png?width=474&format=png&auto=webp&s=4ec87675662eb89fd683c0ef5f6b2ebc4cc1e708
From the teaser dedicated to Steve Rogers, he married Peggy Carter which likely made a distinct event by additionally having a son. Based on what we know from the *Agent Carter* series and *Captain America: Winter Soldier*, Peggy had a son and daughter with her future husband. Writers Markus & McFeely stated the intention was Steve always being the mystery husband but that contradicts the established logic of time travel within the MCU.
It also wouldn't align with how an elderly Peggy talked to Steve before her death -- telling him she wished Steve got to live a full life as he was looking at the picture of her with her kids. The only way to resolve the paradox would be Steve serving as a sperm donor and thus technically still the father. Peggy's husband would be a fake story to cover up the truth. SHIELD or the US Government would 100% do this in-universe to see if the super soldier serum would affect biological children. 1949 is also when the US government reactivated the Super Soldier Program.
This is where things get interesting. Steve Rogers was a stubborn man in terms of morals and likely would not have allowed the following events to take place due to his personal ties:
* Arnim Zola & secretly HYDRA scientists being recruited in August 1949 for Operation Paperclip ahead of the official founding of SHIELD.
* Bucky Barnes turned into the Winter Soldier in December 1949 after HYDRA discovers him in the custody of the Soviet Union.
Preventing these two events would be massive for the future events of the MCU as it prevents the following activities in the 1950s:
* The formation of SHIELD in 1950 with deep infiltration by HYDRA
* Infiltration of HYDRA into US Government and associated agencies like NASA
* Human experimentation on black soldiers during the Korean War to create new super soldiers (Isaiah Bradley) and most of their deaths due to serum complications and then Isaiah is captured for additional experimentation by HYDRA and the US Government
* The Vietnam War in 1955, supposedly orchestrated by HYDRA per MCU timeline
**How Steve Created an Incursion**
https://preview.redd.it/ccfpap6odsdg1.png?width=1400&format=png&auto=webp&s=facf2834fc5e8895cccfea334a88fd68c0ba34d5
Changing the above historical events and having a child are all actions that would fundamentally shift the future from the natural flow of the Sacred Timeline. I think the branched timeline caused by Steve's actions in *Avengers: Endgame* started to trend towards becoming an alternate universe. However, he disrupted this process by returning to the Sacred Timeline and returning shortly after he initially departed it. He essentially created a nexus event and then attempted to "patch" it the same way he did by returning the Infinity Stones. However, as the originator of the nexus event, I would imagine Steve carried a disproportionate amount of influence on the flow of this timeline.
Steve's actions in returning to the Sacred Timeline, after such a prolonged and presumably impactful life on the branched timeline, disrupted the expansion of the branched timeline which results in an Incursion. Since this is an Incursion involving the Sacred Timeline which has an already unnatural relationship with the rest of the multiverse, I think the reaction is an acceleration of Incursions across the multiverse that infinitely accelerates until the multiverse is completely destroyed...resulting in the birth of a new multiverse.
Commentaires
I sometimes wish we’d have a much harder science / sci-fi bent to this stuff, but these movies are made to be accessible to practically everyone ages 10 and above.
Considering Steve growing old in the main timeline (rather than a branch) makes no sense, and how the directors already said he grew old in a branch, he probably grew old in a branch.
“That's our opinion, to be fair, I think Joe and Anthony might have a different opinion, and it kind of depends on what Marvel wants to do going forward," McFeely said. "But it was our thought that Steve lived in his own timeline and always married Peggy and those kids you see in Winter Soldier are his kids.
"We like that idea, but we'll certainly wait to see how Marvel wants to move going forward."
May 15, 2019
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/avengers-endgame-time-travel-explained-back-to-the-future-130000217.html
I don’t say Steve is the parent of Peggy’s kids on the main timeline in a traditional sense. I said it doesn’t match the logic of time travel in the MCU as it was explained and the only way it’s possible is for him to be a sperm donor.
I never said Steve grew old in the main timeline. Steve grows old in the branched timeline and then returns to the main timeline. The returning part is what I’m saying caused the Incursion.
Loki / Morbius (and rest of TVA) crew caused incursions then by allowing branching? Not Steve?
Note that HWR never claimed the multiversal war was from branches causing problems. He claimed it was from other versions of him fighting each other.
Loki basically tells us zero about incursions. Hell Strange 2 which mentions incursions more than once tells us almost nothing about incursions. Does that movie even say why they happen? The Illuminati don’t know why, I remember that comment, stuck out like a sore thumb to me.
Conceptually, if the branched timeline has been around for a prolonged period of time it could have sub-branches also growing. The way Steve returned home after decades runs the risk of the branched timeline becoming a massive loop of time not folded back into the primary timeline, however, if that branched timeline already had branches of its own then it could destabilize everything.
It’s why a branched timeline caused by a nexus event has to be closed essentially right where it started before it can have further branches. It’s why there was a specific zone after its created to prune branches at the TVA.
You are saying the TVA under Loki has caused countless incursions?
Why would Steve’s branch be any different than millions of others?
When someone makes a certain decision that causes a branched timeline, they usually have no idea they are now a variant and just continue on with their life. What Steve Rogers did was something extremely unnatural when he returned not only to the primary timeline but seconds after he initially left after decades in another timeline.
Without He Who Remains the multiverse is able to grow freely but at risk of chaotic events from when branches become too big.
Steve’s actions specifically in going to the branched timeline were not vital to the plans of He Who Remains. After the events of Endgame the purpose of The Avengers in the development of future multiverse related technology specifically for a He Who Remains variant was achieved.
Rather, "an incursion occurs when the **boundary between universes** erodes and they collide, destroying one or both entirely."
This is the space between universal membranes getting smaller. It's happening because people are travelling between universes, and in doing so pulling their universes closer together.
Steve Rogers is not *the* cause of the incursions, rather he is simply one of many. You have Dr Strange, Scarlett Witch, America Chavez, the Avengers time heist, probably Ant-man, Monica Rambeau, and Steve all would have contributed to the incursions. Even Kang, Loki and the TVA maybe depending on if the method of travel changes things.
I *think* the idea is that the longer someone stays in a universe they don't belong in the more erosion occurs. They are essentially bringing a part of their universe with them. It acts as a kind a tether.
Steve, Dr Strange, Clea, and Monica would be spending a lot of time in another universe right "now"... But Steve is truly out of time now, before he still had lived through the decades while he was a Capsicle. Now he is out of time and space.
"When you mess with time it tends to mess back, you'll see."
Looking forward to that payoff.
I agree Steve isn’t the cause of all Incursions but he’s probably the cause of the Incursion that specifically threatens the Sacred Timeline. All other potential Incursions from The Marvels or Spider-Man: NWH were resolved in time.
First, space is expanding due to dark energy. The "big rip" is a hypothetical *eventual* consequence of dark energy continuing to accelerate (which cosmologists now believe is actually decelerating but is constantly being measured and debated). In this case nothing is headed towards anything else. Everything is literally doing the opposite, moving away from everything else, because the space between everything is growing.
If I am standing 10m from you and the space between everything expands by 1m we are now 11m apart, not closer. Continuing, if I was standing 10m in front of the wall behind me and you were standing 10m in front of the wall behind you there is now 11m between me and my wall and 11m between you and your wall.
While I used to be 20m from your wall I am now 22 away from your wall. Nothing is getting closer to anything. Everything is getting further apart as space expands. Dark energy likely applies to the space between universes too. The space is expanding between them.
In any case dark energy is a type of force that started with the big bang and causes space to expand. The big rip is when all matter down to the very quarks and gluons are pulled apart because the pull of dark energy becomes too great. There will be nothing left to get closer to lol.
I'm pretty sure the idea is incursions is explained in Marvel Comics already, so I'm not sure what the point of all this even is. If you're looking for a real world explanation try a force opposite to dark energy that only works on the space between universes. So it's as if gravity increases, maybe due to universes becoming tethered and exerting a positive force on each other.