Just finished rewatching "Wakanda Forever," I'd forgotten how good this movie is
I had *definitely* forgotten how long it is - looked at the runtime when I started it and was like "oh dang" 😂 But the pacing was excellent - the extra half hour really helped so all the many different character introductions and plot elements had time to breathe.
I've seen all the discussions about how King T'Challa should have been recast, and I for one am not opposed to recasting in general. However, in this case, I'm glad they didn't. Chadwick Boseman was, by all accounts, a *really* good guy. His death being so sudden, the circumstances being so tragic, and the details of all the service he had done and wanted to have continued even after his death, coupled with the fact that all this went down during COVID when *everything* was just awful, made his loss cut that much deeper. I think the creatives made the right decision to have fiction reflect reality (at least a little bit) in this case, as it allowed his fanbase to mourn him through the story. And this helped the story hold a LOT more weight than it otherwise might have. Plus, it was a decent way to transition the Black Panther mantle on to other characters.
I've also seen the discussions about how Shuri shouldn't have been the next Black Panther. Personally, I think Letitia Wright did a great job stepping into a more prominent role, especially depicting the struggle Shuri was experiencing after having been Blipped and come back only to suffer multiple tragic losses one right after the other *and* feel responsible for not preventing these losses somehow. It also helped that there were plenty of other characters who needed time in the spotlight and they were given their due as well, which allowed for the *really* strong cast to shine overall.
On a related note, I'm glad the story focused on Shuri rather than Nakia, simply because Shuri losing her entire family rather quickly *and* feeling the immense pressure due to being the last living member of the royal family (that she was aware of) served as a clearer focal point for the themes the movie tackled.
(Just have to say, it was a stroke of genius to have N'Jadaka in Shuri's initial vision. Perfectly correlated with Shuri's beliefs and emotions at that time; and also made her later vision of Ramonda hit that much harder 😭)
I also have to applaud Marvel for having 2 projects that deal heavily in grief and loss (*WandaVision* and *Wakanda Forever*) and doing a phenomenal job with both of them.
I've seen all the discussions about how King T'Challa should have been recast, and I for one am not opposed to recasting in general. However, in this case, I'm glad they didn't. Chadwick Boseman was, by all accounts, a *really* good guy. His death being so sudden, the circumstances being so tragic, and the details of all the service he had done and wanted to have continued even after his death, coupled with the fact that all this went down during COVID when *everything* was just awful, made his loss cut that much deeper. I think the creatives made the right decision to have fiction reflect reality (at least a little bit) in this case, as it allowed his fanbase to mourn him through the story. And this helped the story hold a LOT more weight than it otherwise might have. Plus, it was a decent way to transition the Black Panther mantle on to other characters.
I've also seen the discussions about how Shuri shouldn't have been the next Black Panther. Personally, I think Letitia Wright did a great job stepping into a more prominent role, especially depicting the struggle Shuri was experiencing after having been Blipped and come back only to suffer multiple tragic losses one right after the other *and* feel responsible for not preventing these losses somehow. It also helped that there were plenty of other characters who needed time in the spotlight and they were given their due as well, which allowed for the *really* strong cast to shine overall.
On a related note, I'm glad the story focused on Shuri rather than Nakia, simply because Shuri losing her entire family rather quickly *and* feeling the immense pressure due to being the last living member of the royal family (that she was aware of) served as a clearer focal point for the themes the movie tackled.
(Just have to say, it was a stroke of genius to have N'Jadaka in Shuri's initial vision. Perfectly correlated with Shuri's beliefs and emotions at that time; and also made her later vision of Ramonda hit that much harder 😭)
I also have to applaud Marvel for having 2 projects that deal heavily in grief and loss (*WandaVision* and *Wakanda Forever*) and doing a phenomenal job with both of them.
Commentaires
Fair point. Especially since she was Blipped so it's not like she learned in the 5 year interim 🤔 Maybe Okoye taught her some fighting techniques in the year after T'Challa's death?
And losing to Kilmonger is not a big deal. He defeated TChalla as well.
But where would that put Namor in fighting skills? Probably less than the other two but he is exceptionally powerful which seems to be his strength.
But people draw the line at Shuri being able to fight with the herb, with the suit, and with all her emotional rage. What could the difference be?
In the next scene, Namor meets Queen Ramonda, and she asks him "what can I offer you in exchange (for Shuri)?" and he flat out says "Nothing." What happened to the whole "Wakanda needs to ally with Atlantis" that he was going on and on about in the previous scene he was in? He could've just asked Queen Ramonda instead of Shuri for it. Instead, he says "Nothing." It makes no sense
Edit: hope this thread doesn’t turn to shit like every other black panther related thread
He is *such* a good character because - well, on the one hand, it's totally understandable why he goes to such lengths to protect his people. (In a sense it almost kinda calls back to N'Jadaka's motives for doing what *he* did, which fits really well with the parallels drawn between Killmonger, Shuri, and Namor.) On the other hand, much like with Killmonger, he takes it ***WAAAAY*** too far. Like - why kill Riri? Killing her won't actually change the situation or undo the fact that the scanner thing was made. Why threaten Wakanda SO strongly, why be so antagonistic toward them from the jump, why attack Wakanda and kill the queen when they started the hostilities against Wakanda in the first place?
So, for me at least, I sympathize with his goal to protect his people especially given his (limited) experiences with land dwellers, and understand where he's coming from; but also I can't help but think that he's bringing a lot of the hardship on himself by not even considering diplomacy.
>A guy who would totally team up with Dr.doom for his own gain only to be betrayed and forced to side with the heroes
💯
But I have to say it doesn't rank in my top half of Marvel movies overall. I thought it was very slow-paced and very long. I thought it made no sense to have Riri Williams play a role in the story - she seemed shoehorned in. And I thought >!Queen Ramonda's!< death was gratuitous and unnecessary.
So overall, it's about a 6/10 for me - that is to say, overall more enjoyable than not, but far from a home run. I enjoyed it about as much as Captain America: Brave New World; The Marvels; and Black Widow (each of which I would also give a 6/10, but for different reasons).
I don't know if this is a convincing troll, or just a genuinely terrible opinion...
* Moon Knight should have gotten another season or a movie.
* Doctor Strange 3 should have been out by now.
* Shang Chi was never seen again after 2021.
* Kate Bishop should have gotten her own series or at least an appearance in another project (post credit scenes don't count).
Compare that to the Infinity Saga characters, in just the first two phases, we got a hulk movie, 3 Iron Man movies, 2 Captain America movies, 2 Thor movies and 2 Avengers movies. There were only two movies that weren't related to the main Avengers saga, GOTG and Ant-Man.
Moon Knight not getting another appearance is maybe understandable because Oscar Isaac didn't want to do more projects. But I don't see any excuse for most of the new characters being so underdeveloped.
I liked Namor, the music was good, and even the cinematography was really beautiful in some scenes (which is rare in MCU movies).
I thought Shuri as Black Panther would be trash but I wanna give them props for making her as tolerable as possible. But Shuri as Black Panther was enough for one movie, I really hope she isn't THE Black Panther after that, she doesn't have the screen presence for that.
Angela Bassett KILLED it tho. The MVP of that movie.
And then they basically recreate the fucking Batman v Superman Martha scene where Shuri realise "hey you're a person too, we shouldn't fight =(" like oh my god. It totally destroyed my goodwill towards the movie. I also didn't particularly like how ultimately, Namor's rage was justified - Nakia invaded sovereign territory and murdered one of the Atlanteans (sorry I know they use a different name kn WF but can't remember it). Like, she straight up started the war and Shuri and Co are all shocked Pikachu when they retaliate.
The post credit with T'Challa Jr pissed me off too. If they wanted to honour Chadwick, he should have been called Chadwick or use one of his middle names or something. By calling him T'Challa it literally feels like "Shuri is a placeholder until we can justify putting a T'Challa back in the suit" and if they were going to do that they should have just recast.
Hmmm... It's more complicated than that. I won't count Namor's attack against the people using the vibranium detection machine, because that really was Talokan protecting themselves against what would essentially turn into an invasion. However, Namor allowed the Wakandans to take the blame for something they knew nothing about, snuck into their country and snuck up on the queen to demand that *they* capture the engineer with Namor's intention being to kill her (as if killing Riri would change anything), and then - without any real indication that Riri *wouldn't* be turned over to them - Namor's people attacked and kidnapped the Wakandan princess, *and then* Namor didn't hesitate to try to blackmail Ramonda into cooperating while using the princess as leverage.
I lean toward viewing Namor as being responsible for initiating hostilities.
All of that comes BEFORE Nakia rescues Shuri... and even then, Nakia only killed the guards when one guard specifically shouted "Kill the princess!" (recall that Nakia had spoken some of their language and presumably understood some of it) and the other was holding Shuri at knifepoint and not letting go. **I don't condone what Nakia did** - I don't see why she couldn't have found a non-lethal way to counter the guards - however, it's not like the guards were surrendering.
I mean, I only remember it because I literally just rewatched it a few hours ago, so... 😅
The reason ironheart sucked was cuz her suit was trash and couldn’t fight for shit
She was way better in the show
Would be pretty problematic to suggest some actors deserve to not be recast after they die but others don't...for reasons.
(Then again, with Marvel apparently having a *really really really* hard time letting some actors go even after a story is concluded... 🤔)
I get why people feel like Riri feels kinda shoehorned in, but I think her character is doing what it‘s supposed to do. Bring a little lightheartedness in an otherwise bleak story.
Don’t get me wrong, the original BP is a great movie but WF takes the strengths of its predecessor and (necessarily) builds something much better.
Same here. I'm still undecided as to whether I consider *WF* to be better than *BP,* but I definitely consider them to be at least relatively equal to each other.
>the original BP is a great movie but WF takes the strengths of its predecessor and (necessarily) builds something much better.
I do agree that *WF* rather brilliantly builds on the groundwork *BP* laid, even with all the unforeseen changes that occurred.
The original BP is an excellent movie. But the way WF builds on what came before and transforms Shuri into a vengeful, complex protagonist is just fantastic. Her character arc brings together all of the previous Panthers we’ve seen. There are shades of her brother, her cousin, her father, and that’s reflected in her costume too.
I still remember sitting in the theater the first time I saw Wakanda Forever, being blown away at how Ryan Coogler took Shuri in the opposite direction of T’Challa in the wake of their parents’ deaths. I was thinking of T’Challa’s line from Civil War about vengeance consuming Zemo as Shuri led her people to war and I was so happy that line was brought back in the final battle.
Shuri is one of my favorite modern MCU characters, and I definitely put this movie in my top 5, probably above BP 1. WF’s only real weakness, in my opinion, is questionable fight/plot logic. The character writing, themes, acting, music, and cinematography are all superb.
MoM, ShangChi, Thor L&T, Wakanda3, Eternals. I rewarch these more than anything. They are just great.
I will admit that I didn't rematch Wakanda 3 for over a year after release. Fired it up and was stunned how good it was.
So many sad scenes and Namor is amazing.
I'm just happy I have a theater with subtitles 😄
Other than that, Namor is amazing, Queen Ramonda is amazing, the score and design of the movie are obviously fantastic.
My only gripe is that all of the Ross/Valentina stuff doesnt feel organically sewn into the movie, like it feels awkward when we check in on them. But that's a very small gripe.
I agree that the Val scenes feel awkwardly inserted though, mostly because each one is like 1 minute long. They’re too short to be cutting back and forth from that much.
I like BPWF too, got chills with Queen Ramonda scolding Okoye.
Sometimes even I can't believe it when I find myself watching something other than Star Wars 😜😂
While I understand why some people wanted a recast, I think the real-world impact of Chadwick Boseman’s death on his friends and colleagues is often overlooked in that discussion. To ask these people, who all seem very close and created a hugely impactful film, to reunite with a different actor in the main role and ignore their friend’s passing would be disrespectful to everyone involved IMO. Basing the film around the real-life loss was their choice and I think it made for a very moving story.
Leticia Wright is fine but I don't find her to be a strong enough successor for T'Challa Black Panther. I would have preferred if multiple people became the Black Panther successor which really fits the Wakanda Forever subtitle of the film.
Ironheart feels shoe-horned in, Queen Ramonda's death is silly, the final act and battle is dumb, and the film is just way too long with odd pacing.
It's an okay film considering the circumstances behind the scenes but yeah, not even close to my top 10 MCU films
Anyway, sorry for the rant. It was just very frustrating seeing a movie starting so well and hitting such low.
No, she's not vying for the throne at all.
The focus and energy given to grief, and then the incredible work they did with Namor is some of the MCU's best characterization.
That said...
They fridged ramonda, and had one of the most intelligent characters the universe act like an idiot to resolve the plot in a bizarre contrived manner.
Dominique is fine as Riri (honestly just wish she was taller, but that's a minor non-complaint), but her story in the movie is completely pointless and does not even serve her solo show in any meaningful way. It adds like 40 minutes to the runtime for basically no payoff.
Everything else in the movie was quite well done, and I honestly think that the no-recast is for the best. basically just splitting tchalla into 2 characters for the MCU is totally fine, and allows us to explore more of the character from the comics.
... Really? *Iron Man* vs *Iron Man 2*? *Thor* vs *Dark World*? Neither of those had a comparable "drop in quality," in your opinion?
In the the comic, especially jonathan hickman era of avengers, tchala was demoted or something, became king of the dead, while shuri step up to the wakanda throne.
Now shuri in the book is sooo different. She is dark & Fierce since the beginning. Even tchalla cant mess with her.
In MCU we had a lighthearted shuri. But now we can get a fierceful one like in the comic.
More dynamic in relationahip between heroes. I dont want all of them to be bff to each other.
The original movie was just so strong and has one of the most well-rounded casts of characters in any MCU movie that it was really expertly executed as an ensemble in the sequel and everyone did an exceptional job making something that honors the memory of Chadwick while also living up to a worthy successor to the original banger film.