Loki v Wanda - a few personal thoughts on what I've seen of the fandom discussion around these two characters
I find it fascinating to compare the general fandom discussion surrounding Loki, versus that surrounding Wanda. Mainly that Loki has pretty consistently been generally discussed as a sympathetic villain with redemption potential turned anti-hero (if not full-on hero), while Wanda is (especially recently) frequently discussed as an irredeemable villain who missed her opportunity to even be considered an anti-hero.
(Note: I'm saying all this as a HUGE Loki fan myself. And I realize every fan has their own individual opinions on these characters. I'm just pointing out an overall trend I've noticed on discussion boards/fandom spaces.)
On the one hand, we have Loki, who fans sympathized with for YEARS (long before *Ragnarok* and *Infinity War* and the show *Loki*), and whose fans argued that his hate toward Odin/Thor and his subsequent tantrums-turned-invasions are understandable, if not justified, because *[checks notes]* Loki was second in line for the throne and Odin hadn't told him he was adopted. Oh, and he's the god of mischief, so that's just what he does (because, ya know, mischief = murder and war).
On the other hand, we have Wanda, who was raised in a war-torn country, lost her parents at a young age in a tragic bombing and spent days trapped with her brother in the wreckage staring at a bomb thinking they're both going to die at any moment, lost her brother when he was killed while trying to rescue people, faced global suspicion and hate because of her powers even though she had conscientiously chosen the "good side," had to kill the love of her life before time was rewound to where she had to watch someone else murder her love even more brutally, was dusted for 5 years, came back to discover the love of her life had his own legally reported wishes *completely* ignored and was being dismantled to be used as a weapon and she wasn't allowed to retrieve his body for a funeral. Yet there are fans who refuse to sympathize with her (NOTE: I'm not even talking about *excusing* her, I'm talking about *sympathizing* with her) and consider her a full-on villain because "but she sided with Ultron before, she wasn't punished enough, and her family wasn't real." (Most astounding to me is that these arguments started right after *WandaVision* finished airing, even BEFORE the 2 hours' worth of character assassination that is *Multiverse of Madness* was released. Also, *Agatha All Along* definitively showed that Wanda's family was, in fact, real.)
The thing is, Wanda consistently proves herself to be "redeemable/hero" material because, once she realizes she's made a mistake, ***she tries to fix it.*** Meanwhile, Loki takes a long time - a LONG time - to really start to prove he's changing his ways, much less take responsibility for anything and try to fix things. Yet Wanda's mistakes are often discussed by the fandom as if they prove she's always been a villain, while Loki's mistakes are and always have been framed as just a natural part of his redemption arc. Allow me to illustrate by making a few comparisons:
💚 Loki concocts a plan to get Thor banished, put Odin out of commission, and let the Frost Giants invade Asgard, all so he can get credit for saving Odin and therefore be given the throne. **Thor and his friends are the ones who stop Loki from fully carrying out this plot;** ***Loki does not make any effort to fix his own mistakes.*** But we still sympathize with Loki because he clearly feels like he's been mistreated and unloved.
❤️ Wanda sides with Ultron after spending her life up to that point in an environment where the Avengers are not depicted as the heroes, and she has personal experience that supports this viewpoint. **When she discovers Ultron's true intentions, however, *she decides to fix her mistake* by turning on him, helping the Avengers defeat him, and then committing to the Avengers.** Yet people still point to this part of her past as proof that Wanda was always a villain.
💚💚 Loki allies himself with Thanos and invades Earth. **The Avengers stop Loki from fulfilling his plan;** ***Loki does not change his own mind and does nothing to fix this mistake himself.*** But we still sympathize with Loki because he was clearly being threatened by Thanos, and there's even a common fan theory that he was under the influence of the Mind Stone during the events of the movie.
❤️❤️ Wanda creates the Hex, exerting full control over the people of Westview and subjecting them to experiencing the grief and pain she is feeling. **When she fully realizes what the people are going through, however, *she decides to fix her mistake* by immediately starting to dismantle the Hex and finishing taking it down once Agatha is defeated,** even though Vision and her children will die in the process. Yet people insist that Wanda was and is the villain and Monica shouldn't have sympathized with her.
💚💚💚 After banishing Odin and taking over the throne, Loki leaves the Nine Realms to devolve into chaos until Thor finds him out. ***He starts to correct his mistakes*** - **albeit reluctantly and with lots of ups/downs - by joining Thor in saving Asgard and its people from Hela.** Loki also makes the mistake of taking the Tesseract from Asgard, making the refugee Asgardians a target for Thanos. ***Loki attempts to fix this mistake*** **by trying to kill Thanos.** The fandom agrees that Loki died, if not a hero, then at least solidly an anti-hero trying to do the right thing. (And then a variant of himself proves himself even further in the *Loki* show.)
❤️❤️❤️ Wanda gets corrupted by the Darkhold and goes on a murder rampage across several parallel universes. **When she finally wakes up to what she is doing,** ***she fixes it by destroying herself and the Darkhold along with her.*** A vocal part of the fandom still asserts Wanda is a villain and didn't do enough to redeem herself.
***My own stance in all this?***
**Loki is a complex character with both flaws and positive qualities, who made a bunch of awful choices and eventually grew enough as a character that he ultimately started trying to fix his mistakes. Taking his full story into account, he is ultimately a hero.**
**Wanda is also a complex character with both flaws and positive qualities, who made a bunch of awful choices yet consistently showed her willingness and desire to correct her mistakes and not repeat them. Taking her full story into account, she is and always was a hero.**
(Note: I'm saying all this as a HUGE Loki fan myself. And I realize every fan has their own individual opinions on these characters. I'm just pointing out an overall trend I've noticed on discussion boards/fandom spaces.)
On the one hand, we have Loki, who fans sympathized with for YEARS (long before *Ragnarok* and *Infinity War* and the show *Loki*), and whose fans argued that his hate toward Odin/Thor and his subsequent tantrums-turned-invasions are understandable, if not justified, because *[checks notes]* Loki was second in line for the throne and Odin hadn't told him he was adopted. Oh, and he's the god of mischief, so that's just what he does (because, ya know, mischief = murder and war).
On the other hand, we have Wanda, who was raised in a war-torn country, lost her parents at a young age in a tragic bombing and spent days trapped with her brother in the wreckage staring at a bomb thinking they're both going to die at any moment, lost her brother when he was killed while trying to rescue people, faced global suspicion and hate because of her powers even though she had conscientiously chosen the "good side," had to kill the love of her life before time was rewound to where she had to watch someone else murder her love even more brutally, was dusted for 5 years, came back to discover the love of her life had his own legally reported wishes *completely* ignored and was being dismantled to be used as a weapon and she wasn't allowed to retrieve his body for a funeral. Yet there are fans who refuse to sympathize with her (NOTE: I'm not even talking about *excusing* her, I'm talking about *sympathizing* with her) and consider her a full-on villain because "but she sided with Ultron before, she wasn't punished enough, and her family wasn't real." (Most astounding to me is that these arguments started right after *WandaVision* finished airing, even BEFORE the 2 hours' worth of character assassination that is *Multiverse of Madness* was released. Also, *Agatha All Along* definitively showed that Wanda's family was, in fact, real.)
The thing is, Wanda consistently proves herself to be "redeemable/hero" material because, once she realizes she's made a mistake, ***she tries to fix it.*** Meanwhile, Loki takes a long time - a LONG time - to really start to prove he's changing his ways, much less take responsibility for anything and try to fix things. Yet Wanda's mistakes are often discussed by the fandom as if they prove she's always been a villain, while Loki's mistakes are and always have been framed as just a natural part of his redemption arc. Allow me to illustrate by making a few comparisons:
💚 Loki concocts a plan to get Thor banished, put Odin out of commission, and let the Frost Giants invade Asgard, all so he can get credit for saving Odin and therefore be given the throne. **Thor and his friends are the ones who stop Loki from fully carrying out this plot;** ***Loki does not make any effort to fix his own mistakes.*** But we still sympathize with Loki because he clearly feels like he's been mistreated and unloved.
❤️ Wanda sides with Ultron after spending her life up to that point in an environment where the Avengers are not depicted as the heroes, and she has personal experience that supports this viewpoint. **When she discovers Ultron's true intentions, however, *she decides to fix her mistake* by turning on him, helping the Avengers defeat him, and then committing to the Avengers.** Yet people still point to this part of her past as proof that Wanda was always a villain.
💚💚 Loki allies himself with Thanos and invades Earth. **The Avengers stop Loki from fulfilling his plan;** ***Loki does not change his own mind and does nothing to fix this mistake himself.*** But we still sympathize with Loki because he was clearly being threatened by Thanos, and there's even a common fan theory that he was under the influence of the Mind Stone during the events of the movie.
❤️❤️ Wanda creates the Hex, exerting full control over the people of Westview and subjecting them to experiencing the grief and pain she is feeling. **When she fully realizes what the people are going through, however, *she decides to fix her mistake* by immediately starting to dismantle the Hex and finishing taking it down once Agatha is defeated,** even though Vision and her children will die in the process. Yet people insist that Wanda was and is the villain and Monica shouldn't have sympathized with her.
💚💚💚 After banishing Odin and taking over the throne, Loki leaves the Nine Realms to devolve into chaos until Thor finds him out. ***He starts to correct his mistakes*** - **albeit reluctantly and with lots of ups/downs - by joining Thor in saving Asgard and its people from Hela.** Loki also makes the mistake of taking the Tesseract from Asgard, making the refugee Asgardians a target for Thanos. ***Loki attempts to fix this mistake*** **by trying to kill Thanos.** The fandom agrees that Loki died, if not a hero, then at least solidly an anti-hero trying to do the right thing. (And then a variant of himself proves himself even further in the *Loki* show.)
❤️❤️❤️ Wanda gets corrupted by the Darkhold and goes on a murder rampage across several parallel universes. **When she finally wakes up to what she is doing,** ***she fixes it by destroying herself and the Darkhold along with her.*** A vocal part of the fandom still asserts Wanda is a villain and didn't do enough to redeem herself.
***My own stance in all this?***
**Loki is a complex character with both flaws and positive qualities, who made a bunch of awful choices and eventually grew enough as a character that he ultimately started trying to fix his mistakes. Taking his full story into account, he is ultimately a hero.**
**Wanda is also a complex character with both flaws and positive qualities, who made a bunch of awful choices yet consistently showed her willingness and desire to correct her mistakes and not repeat them. Taking her full story into account, she is and always was a hero.**
Commentaires
Another key difference is that Loki just seems to be able to see the humanity in others and that’s why he can be redeemed. He originally saw humans as ants but now he sees them as worth saving and dedicating his life to protect. Wanda treats everyone like ants(pawns/playthings). Her very last words to Agatha were that she would only return a portion of Agatha’s freedom in the future if she could personally use her if she was ever in need. Essentially designating her a slave in one way or another forever. she was also willing to steal Billy and Tommy’s mom from them so she could play house with them because she didn’t recognize or value their feelings, thoughts and opinions on being rehomed. She used all of westview as meat puppets. There is just something icky about a character that dehumanizes everyone she meets and has no issues treating everyone else as objects who are beneath her and whose only purpose is to serve her needs. Nothing Wanda has done to date has ever deviated from this way of treating others. I can’t support a character who treats everyone like ants.
The scene in *Avengers* where Loki takes out the German guy's eye and then insists the people kneel seems to make it very clear that Loki is enjoying what he's doing in terrorizing the people. And that's just one example.
And I genuinely can't think of any instance where Wanda, in her right mind, "derives pleasure from handpicking the easiest targets to maximize their terror and pain."
>She also takes pleasure in harming the vulnerable and defenceless. She sent hulk loose on a civilian population
What Wanda did there was absolutely wrong; but I saw nothing in her actions that showed she took pleasure in harming the civilians. She wanted to get to the Hulk to further Ultron's plan at that time; there is nothing to indicate that her main goal was "I want to hurt people." Again, what she did was wrong. But she didn't do it because people were "ants" to her; she did it because she wanted to show how the Avengers are the enemy.
>Her very last words to Agatha were that she would only return a portion of Agatha’s freedom in the future if she could personally use her if she was ever in need
... Yes, she said that to the woman who held her children hostage, manipulated her in various ways to try to steal her powers, and lied to her about being able to "fix" the Hex. Wanda cared enough about the people in Westview that the **moment** she finally came to terms with what they were going through, she tried to set them free. Agatha didn't care *at all* about the people in Westview and was more than willing to keep them hostage so long as she got Wanda's power.
>she was also willing to steal Billy and Tommy’s mom from them so she could play house with them because she didn’t recognize or value their feelings, thoughts and opinions on being rehomed.
She was under the influence of the Darkhold at that time. What she did was wrong - and *she came to recognize that* and then did what she could to fix her wrongs.
>There is just something icky about a character that dehumanizes everyone she meets and has no issues treating everyone else as objects who are beneath her and whose only purpose is to serve her needs.
I guess all I can say to this is that you and I apparently have very, *very* different reads of Wanda as a character and her treatment of others. Honestly makes me wonder if we've watched the same shows/movies 😆
The narrative, through what Wanda says about herself and what other characters say about her, tries to paint Wanda as sympathetic but in over her head. The actual scenes show half, if not most of her actions as intentional or malicious.
As an example, with the whole deal in Westview, towards the end, Wanda acts regretful, as if she didn't INTEND to hold these people against their will or cause them pain. But we are also shown, several episodes earlier that Wanda became aware that she was mind controlling these people and took steps to FORCIBLY keep it that way.
A common pattern in Wanda's actions is to keep going with whatever makes her happy or suit her needs, but ONLY as long as she is still able to pretend it's justified or it remains convenient. She didn't stop because she realized that "mind control is bad!" She's an adult. She knew she was doing something wrong. And if she wasn't sure, the multiple people, including her sort of dead husband, pushing back against her would have clued her in. She stopped because every single person in Westview very clearly hated her in a way she couldn't hide from when the spell broke.
The way "her" children clearly hated her when she tried to take them.
Or realizing that staying the course with Ultron would result in the deaths of her and her country, not just the people/places she DIDN'T care about until that moment.
It's a pattern, basically.
It's interesting to see her progression, because she clearly is starting to have doubts about what she's doing when she asks Fake!Pietro in the Halloween episode if he thinks what she's doing is wrong. From her perspective, she truly didn't know what was going on or how it happened at first, and when she *did* start to realize (by the second episode) that she was in charge, she justified it because she thought the people were happy, that she was keeping them happy and safe. *Yes,* it was wrong of her to do so. There's no question about that. But she certainly was not being malicious in her motives.
Agatha was malicious in her motives. She knew full well all along that the people were suffering, and she was more than willing to keep them that way as long as she had Wanda's power. Wanda being in denial and being resistant to correction *did* hurt the people, but this wasn't intentional on Wanda's part.
And, side note - I find it interesting that Wanda created a Vision who could and did act autonomously and just like "himself" enough that he not only had the power to argue with Wanda but also had the power to free others from her mind control.
>as if she didn't INTEND to hold these people against their will or cause them pain.
Oh, she did realize she was mind controlling them. She did NOT realize it was causing them pain. She did NOT intend to torment them that way. As I said before, she was operating under the delusion that she was keeping them happy and safe.
>Or realizing that staying the course with Ultron would result in the deaths of her and her country, not just the people/places she DIDN'T care about until that moment.
This is an interesting take. All we see in Wanda's head is her realizing that Ultron is going to destroy the *entire* world. Yes, that includes Sokovia; but why are we assuming she didn't care if the *rest of the world minus Sokovia* was destroyed?
Her focus up to that point was always on the Avengers and getting back at them - especially Tony - because she thought they were the enemy, and she thought Ultron was focused solely on destroying the *Avengers.* That's what Ultron indicates to her, after all. Destroying the Avengers does NOT equate to destroying the world/other countries minus Sokovia.
Her children were scared of her. That is different. However MoM was poorly thought out from the beginning so it means very little.
Wanda was unable to read Ultron's mind when she agreed to help Ultron. When she was able to read his mind and find out what he was up to, she switched sides.
Maybe it has to do with Wanda’s actions/circumstances being more relatable to an individuals reality (ie instances of abuse) that they become biased in a way that makes it impossible for them to empathize.
I can’t help but think it is inherently sexist. I know that’s a stick of dynamite waiting to blow in this sub but there it is.
In Age of Ultron, Wanda was finding herself. She was initially driven by her hatred for Tony Stark. Little wonder. In WandaVision, we saw the life of terror that she led. While they are preparing to watch a sitcom, a battle rages below the window of their apartment. Then a missile strikes and kills her parents. A second missile marked with Stark Industries. She had to stare at that fearing it could go off and kill them at any moment. Little wonder that they were motivated by revenge. I would suggest that anyone would be scarred by that so her reaction is not evil. When she realizes what Ultron's real plan is, she turns against Ultron and attempts to stop him.
In Civil War, Wanda felt very guilty for accidentally killing people. You could further see the guilt in her face when she realized that she was the cause of the Sokovia Accords. Ultimately she was right in helping Steve Rogers.
In WandaVision, she initially created everything when she suffered a emotional collapse. She later thought she was helping people by giving them a idyllic existence. She didn't realize the pain she was causing. When she did, she took it down.
MoM is a difficult fish to dissect. It was done by Raimi and Waldron who had no feeling for the character. They thought that an evil Wanda would sell more tickets. To a degree it did however it hurt the character storywise. Scott Derrickson's vision was much better for the character. It had her at the temple with Strange and Wong while feeling guilty about what happened in Westview. Only at the end does she become controlled by the Darkhold.
It honestly astounds me that I've come across *any* fans who sympathize with Agatha of all people over Wanda. Not that people can't sympathize with Agatha - to each their own - but why this insistence in every single case that *Wanda* alone doesn't deserve some measure of sympathy and understanding??
Also just want to add that, yes, Wanda accidentally killed civilians in Civil War, but that occurred while she was trying to save people. She was in a lose-lose situation: either she does nothing and people on the ground die when the bomb explodes, or people die when she does her best to contain it. But yeah, sure, let's keep using Lagos of all events as an example of Wanda being a monster and "she shouldn't have been allowed to walk away from that" 🙄 (That last line isn't directed at you, by the way!)
>Scott Derrickson's vision was much better for the character. It had her at the temple with Strange and Wong while feeling guilty about what happened in Westview. Only at the end does she become controlled by the Darkhold.
I really think this would have been much better, given that it might have allowed more opportunity to show how evil of an entity the Darkhold itself is and that Wanda was, in certain respects, a victim of it.
TLDR; I think a big reason people sympathize more with Loki is that our brains don’t fully realize the extent of what he’s done because we don’t actually see a lot of it, whereas with Wanda we actually see her doing the horrible stuff.
Good point, thank you!
Should Loki not be held responsible for all the deaths his agents/allies caused when he was invading Earth?
No. Because Odin stole him from his parents, erased his identity, lied to him. Loki wasn't "adopted". He was taught since he was little to hate his own race, to consider them monsters, and then he found out he's one of the monsters. And when he tried to destroy the "monsters" to prove to Odin he's HIS son, and not the Frost Giant, he got the "how can you be so cruel, you're the monster after all". Ignoring the fact that Odin spent half of his life invading and defeating other planets and worlds.
Oh, and Odin "didn't tell him he was adopted". Loki found that out himself in a tramatic way.
You're making assumptions here, because it was never clarified whether he was abandoned or stolen. Some people think it's canon because of that Party Thor episode, except that's a multiverse story and isn't confirmation of anything in the "Sacred Timeline" where our Loki comes from.
There was a scrapped script of Thor 1 iirc where Laufey acknowledges Loki as his bastard son, and a concept art of his mother where it looked like she was possibly giving him up.
Abandoned scripts, concept art, and multiverse stories aren't canon of course, so the truth is all fandom speculation until canon confirms it.
So the fact that he finds out about his heritage in an admittedly awful way, does not excuse him from actions he was already taking *before* finding out.
Just want to correct this point. The only reason Loki tried to kill Thanos is because he believed Thanos was going to kill Thor. Tom Hiddleston gave a very touching explanation.
https://youtu.be/AP05CRvg_ug?si=p6w04TG0hq6icvIE