In Deadpool & Wolverine; the Human Torch loses to Pyro. How is that even possible?

As Stan Lee puts it, “The person who'd win in a fight is the person that the scriptwriter wants to win.” But in reality, does the Human Torch lose to Pyro? *Based on the comics and movies,*

I’m leaning strongly on the Human Torch being far stronger than Pyro and only lost because of budget, comedic value, and simply for the narrative of the movie.

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teroric2025-12-28 07:54

I think the logic was Human Torch makes fire, Pyro controls already existing fire. Also as you say.

shiloh_jdb2025-12-28 11:46

In the books the Torch is also a pyrokinetic though, and a very powerful one. He just uses it much less than his abilities to fly or project force. He should be able to mop the floor with Pyro.

However Pyro’s only ability is controlling flame so you could argue that he’s honed it more and Pyro winning is kind of like the Flash beating Superman in a foot race.

oiledupDiddyboi2025-12-28 13:57

"in the books"

Significant_Ad_68582025-12-28 15:28

The flash can technically bear Superman in any race he can fly he just normally doesn't because that's not his gimmick

The_Unknown_Dude2025-12-28 16:10

Sorry I just picture Flash running with Superman piggybacking in a close embrace. Thanks for the typo.

MightGrowTrees2025-12-29 04:30

I went back and read some old Superman Vs the Flash races and man those old comics are wild.

In the first race different mob families place bets on the different heroes and try to do some random hijinks to trip up the opponent.

Superman and The Flash agree to end the race in a tie so both mob families lose. This trope goes on for a few of their races but when things finally get serious The Flash beats Superman.

cubitoaequet2025-12-29 08:11

I don't remember which book it was, but there is a time Superman is chasing him and is like "we had some pretty close races" and the Flash hits him with "those races were for charity, Clark" and just blows his doors off.

EyeofAnger2025-12-29 17:15

That was in Injustice

Cheeze1872025-12-30 09:46

Fairly sure it was Flash Rebirth.

pharmwho2025-12-30 12:40

It for sure is

AvatarIII2025-12-28 19:26

>In the books

These are the movie characters though, he was never shown to be pyrokinetic in the movies

CaptHayfever2025-12-28 23:13

In fact, he was explicitly shown *not* to be able to create fire in the movies.

AvatarIII2025-12-28 23:23

I'm talking about Johnny. Pyro definitely can't create fire in the movies, but we also never see Johnny controlling any fire that he didn't create.

CaptHayfever2025-12-28 23:30

My bad, I misread you. Sorry.

MrZeral2025-12-28 23:33

Doesn't absorbing the fire in the Marvel movie not count towards it?

Mocharulzdamap2025-12-29 02:03

That was a different johnny so its not gonna always be the same. And it also happened after deadpool and wolverine

CollinsCouldveDucked2025-12-29 01:26

I think it's worth keeping in mind also, this is not comic human torch but airhead human torch from the fox movies.

jonoave2025-12-29 13:59

That this human torch has managed to evade Cassandra all these years suggests he's more than just an air head. I recall Cassandra mentioned that.

Also calling him an air head is just a cop out. The Fox F4 movies were cheesy, but the F4 members worked well together and did save the Earth twice.

SoNotTheCoolest2025-12-29 16:00

And last i checked that’s two more times than You, bub

Zombies8MyNeighborz2025-12-28 15:47

Yes. It happens in the comics where pyro could control him.

BZenMojo2025-12-29 05:58

He even has to turn his flames off and beat Pyro in a fistfight.

Hebroohammr2025-12-28 20:59

That was my thought process but then in Fantastic Four we see Human Torch immediately put out a building fire by flying near it. So he clearly also controls fire and doesn’t just make it.

Bent_Umbrella2025-12-28 23:05

That's an alternate Human Torch. His powers could be different.

Hot_Shallot_29982025-12-29 06:37

yeah, this is the fox torch, from a time when the studio was controlled by someone who, according to people who worked there, Hated superheros

Brianvondoom2025-12-28 08:10

Well I mean you answer you own question, he lost because the story needed him to lose.

However Pyro's power is to control a flame that already exists. It'd probably, if it were in a comic, be represented as a battle of wills between the two as to who wins and keeps control.

DIYExpertWizard2025-12-28 10:43

Plus, Pyro had Cassandra's backing.

Loose_Concentrate3322025-12-28 18:42

Cassandra was not relevant in that confrontation though

DIYExpertWizard2025-12-28 18:45

Granted, but with her power, do you not think she isn't keeping tabs on her roving marauders and bolstering their will and/or powers during conflict? (I know, speculation based on something not in evidence.) But also, it's the psychological tactic of "I work for the big dog" that bolsters Pyro's confidence and ability during that fight.

Loose_Concentrate3322025-12-28 18:50

She doesn't have limitless range, and had to actually touch people to get into their heads, which in theory she'd have to do to "see" what was going on.

At no point was she ever shown to have the ability to reach several miles away.

Oreo-and-Fly2025-12-28 18:57

Yes but that's not exactly his point. They are saying because Cassandra can touch people she may have bolstered his ability.

Just like how Xavier can lock it.

Loose_Concentrate3322025-12-28 19:09

"Granted, but with her power, do you not think she isn't keeping tabs on her roving marauders..."

I was referring to this.

ArabianAftershock2025-12-28 19:57

She isn't established as being able to do that at all and it's unnecessary to assert that she can either way

Kgb7252025-12-28 23:33

In the comics Johnny basically is fire itself he'd run through Pyro

blingbling882025-12-29 03:42

But Torch without the flames should still be able to fly, have increases speed and strength. Pyro can only control flames that won't hurt the torch.

dzan796ero2025-12-30 05:40

I was expecting their powers to cancel each other out so they get into a messy, muddy fist fight. Would fit the DP atmosphere. They could have played around with the idea a little bit more.

Ultimately, even comics versions depend on the writers. The explanation I always heard about why Iceman > Pyro is only because Pyro couldn't manifest flames on his own. But his power to manipulate flames in its own was Omega level.

PhaseSixer2025-12-28 08:49

That version of the Torch is Weaker then That version of Pyro

WishbonePrior93772025-12-28 17:39

I mean yeah this Torch was pruned so… no telling how powerful he got before that

hell20_2025-12-28 09:27

Only MCU Human Torch can absorb fire

MiddlePop49532025-12-28 09:32

That's not true. He's been absorbing fire in the comics for a long time. If he absorbs enough he does a whole "going nova" thing. He can basically use it to fuel his powers.

rekzkarz2025-12-28 09:49

Corroborate- Pyro has fire control, just doesn’t generate fire or go Nova.
I would think Torch could’ve
- flown away,
- gone nova & killed everyone but DP & Wolverine would regen

But Chris Evan’s was there for a few punchlines only:
- misdirect the Capt America
- Pyro loss with nut shot
- skin shred / DP betrayal
- Chris Evan’s cursing

All were hilarious IMO. It was interesting that Wolverine did not seem to recognize either Chris variant, which makes me think that X-men are Avengers variant with only mutants in their dimension.

hell20_2025-12-28 10:42

I don't remember Chris Evans' Johnny Storm absorbing fire Brolecule Man

MiddlePop49532025-12-28 13:18

That doesn't mean only the MCU version can absorb it. The 2000s f4 movies didn't exactly go into their powers with any kind of depth.

hell20_2025-12-28 13:20

That's what I meant, only the MCU Human Torch has been shown to have the ability to absorb fire

MiddlePop49532025-12-28 13:35

I'm just saying that the ability comes from the comic books. He's been shown doing it there for decades.

hell20_2025-12-28 14:02

I know he has that ability in the comics, im just saying that the Fox Torch has never shown that ability on screen so it wouldn't make sense for him to do that in a comedy cameo

idlefritz2025-12-28 09:30

I’m watching that movie right now and it’s doubly lame considering Cassandra Nova makes a point of Torch having been difficult to track down after he jumps willingly into a fight he loses in seconds.

lostinjapan012025-12-28 09:39

Well, as we saw play out in the film, Torch lost. So yes, in reality Torch loses to Pyro.

Realistic_Analyst_262025-12-28 09:55

Torch vs Pyro is like putting a bullet into a gun

BanditoFarms2025-12-28 15:39

So...a fairly routine, unexciting event? Your analogy is about as whimsical as an anus putting feces into a toilet

Matto_02025-12-28 10:22

He lost because that movie is a total disaster

Vainth2025-12-28 10:33

It's movie version, not to mention it's a torch from a crappy universe. That torch probably never put in work to become better version of himself, and never realized his full potential, that he can actually become supernova.

In the comics, he definitely does not lose. Comics torch who's reached his full potential, would overload pyro by going supernova, the same way pyro cannot control the sun.

kwikthroabomb2025-12-28 14:06

Can Pyro not control the sun, or is he limited by his abilities range? Was there ever a specific instance of him attempting to?

Cranktique2025-12-28 16:13

The sun isn’t on fire, there is no combustion. The sun is a nuclear fusion reaction. It is very different.

RockBandDood2025-12-28 16:52

Just curious - is there anyone in marvel comics that could control the sun? Not by sheer overpowering it, but actually interacting with the fusion reaction and potentially threaten to wipe the sun out - or make its fusion reaction less stable and cause massive flares to target at earth

Youngling_Hunt2025-12-28 17:18

I know Sunspot (the mutant, nicknamed Bobby) has thr ability to absorb solar power and then use that for his other powers. Now, I dont know if that means he absorbs UV radiation, or has the ability to actually absorb power from nuclear fusion.

I wanna say that Knull could do something with his shadow powers or whatever to extinguish the sun. And then by extension, Gorr the God Burcher withAll Black/Necrosword.

But honestly im sure someone else knows more

Vainth2025-12-28 17:43

The Sentry maybe has potential to, his monicker during his "fake" golden age, was the power of a million exploding suns. But I doubt he would know how.

BlackCat082025-12-28 18:36

I'm not an ultra expert, but know some can in certain occasions be really op that could.

I'm sure depending on the writers and how they want to use the powers there's plenty because theres some that can do some really absurd things, having the necessary power to affect it completely, that's harder I would lean on only omega level threats being able, but might be wrong and others could also.

Of the omega mutants that I could see them pulling it off if you put them close to the sun and gave them a reason to mess with it:

Franklin Richards with reality warping powers that celestials keep an eye on him I'm sure he could with a good enough reason.

David haller is another son that can alter reality also depending on the personality in control could use one power or another to do so, and this one is clearly mental and actually might do it.

Mister m and molecule man could potentially? I haven't read a lot of them but had molecular control and also subatomic particles.

I'm unsure if magneto could mess with the suns field if you put him close enough, we know that he could control earth's but this would be the one for the writers to decide if he could mess with the suns core or magnetic field.

Iceman depending on the writers could even freeze the sun? Not sure if he actually needs some moisture or he could just drop the temperature regardless.

Oddfool2025-12-30 14:37

From what I recall, Iceman's power isn't creating ice, but causing extreme cold. Ice is just a byproduct by controlling that cold to react with the moisture in the air.

BlackCat082025-12-30 14:57

But isn't the powerscaling approaching like a he's going to freeze molecules by stopping the motion on atoms soon ish?

I see him at that point with being able to survive as water or steam.

Maybe I'm completely wrong and wasn't the xmen iceman and I'm mixing him with someone else.

Oddfool2025-12-30 16:30

I believe that was discussed about his power.

BlackCat082025-12-30 17:08

Thanks I read lots of x-men from the 90s to 2000 but declined and after civil war or ww hulk to completely casual, so I'm not on how the current situation is or if he's even active.

Just saw the evolution from being the not so great snowman Bobby form my uncles og x-men teams volumes to him becoming icecube Bobby later and getting the omega label, so I might have missed or completely misunderstood something about him.

JR_Bourne2025-12-28 20:33

New Sun or a full power Gambit that’s is not restrained by Mr. Sinister’s brain surgery.

blackbutterfree2025-12-29 02:07

Maybe Hazmat? Since the sun is a giant nuclear reaction, it must be radioactive as hell and Jennifer's whole thing is emitting and controlling radiation. But even if she could get to that level of raw power, she certainly wouldn't be able to handle it right now.

ArmadilloFirm30492025-12-30 21:28

the obvious answer would be carol or monica to me given they can absorb/control energy and light respectively.

LittleBingo962025-12-28 18:43

It's also pretty far away.

macgart2025-12-28 20:06

> never put in work to become better version of himself

Yes, I actually see this in first steps as well. They basically made world peace in their late 20s to early 30s and probably never even faced a powered up doom, so they were never challenged to go beyond plus ultra. I hope they show that they spent the gap between first steps and Doomsday improving their powers (especially reed’s stretch) so they can pop off in Doomsday and Secret Wars.

blackbutterfree2025-12-29 02:08

Considering this is the Human Torch from the original movies 20 years ago, I may be wrong, but doesn't he approach supernova levels when Reed's monitoring his energy output in the first movie?

Sailenthropus2025-12-28 11:14

Flame Creator vs Flame Bender

Volatiiile2025-12-28 11:16

Iirc there's a comic where Pyro controls Human Torch for a bit right? Includes Spider-Man I think.

RiamoEquah2025-12-28 11:34

>>But in reality

Sorry, this made me chuckle

GreasyExamination2025-12-28 14:45

Especially considering the sentence just before it lol

rasputin12025-12-28 16:42

in fictional* reality

GargamelLeNoir2025-12-29 10:57

You know what it means. In the logic of the setting.

Pleasant-Answer-9182025-12-28 11:50

in reality, neither one could handle being burned, so i guess human torch would lose first.

supernerdlove2025-12-28 12:13

As always anyone can beat anyone if the writer writes it.

Fun-Poet53382025-12-28 12:46

Well, Stan Lee didn't account for the writer being stupid, so....

ItWasInTheScript2025-12-28 13:03

it was in the script

skyhiker142025-12-28 13:22

Wow wow wow wow wow

Wow

ccReptilelord2025-12-28 14:26

That Pyro experienced second mutation and is now an omega level mutant.

I have no idea if this is correct, but it is an answer. Let's call it Schrodinger's answer, as it's both right and wrong, because now that he's dead and won't be revisited, it will never be clarified.

sworedmagic2025-12-28 15:21

In reality neither exist

paublitobandito2025-12-28 15:25

CAUSE RYAN RYNOLDS SUCKS

9thGearEX2025-12-28 15:32

Ok so this all comes down to 2 questions:

1. Does Pyros ability to quell fire have a limit?
2. Does Human Torches ability to generate fire exceed Pyros ability to quell it?

Goggio2025-12-28 16:04

Sometimes you gotta sit back and enjoy the ride.

Comic logic 101: anyone can beat anyone with the right circumstance. What makes a better story?

gautify2025-12-28 16:12

Fire producer/absorber vs Fire bender.

Pyro has done this before in Spider-Man/Human Torch comics.

Valiantgoon2025-12-28 18:23

It is exactly as both you and Stan Lee said…
It is whoever the screenwriter wants to win,
And in this casethe screenwriter wanted pyro (a low tier marvel bad guy) to beat human torch (a iconic marvel hero) because it would be shocking and comedic

Valiantgoon2025-12-28 18:26

additionally, the screenwriter could’ve chose to just not include human torch in the film entirely and the plot wouldn’t have changed. So budget also wasn’t a factor. I think they had access to an expensive Whoopie cushion that a wide audience would get a big laugh out of, and they used it.

LittleBingo962025-12-28 18:46

Is The Human Torch stronger than Pyro... or is he just more popular?
Seems to me that Pyro had the advantage just by keeping his feet on the ground.

SomboSteel2025-12-28 19:10

This is the same movie where later on Pyro is tasked to kill somebody and is given a gun….lol

Literary_Octopus2025-12-28 19:48

Fire is easier to control, than it is to create. When Johnny is doing all the heavy lifting, it’s easy for Pyro to wear him out.

DynastyZealot2025-12-28 20:15

Because it's a sloppily written movie

LBIdockrat2025-12-28 20:22

Plot necessity.

Cardinal_and_Plum2025-12-28 21:31

Not ready to react/didn't know what Pyro could do. Makes sense to me.

Peanut_Butter_Toast2025-12-28 21:34

Human Torch only lost because he tried to blast Pyro while in the air, causing him to fall and get KOed. Would've been a stalemate if Human Torch stayed on the ground to fight, or it would've turned to a fist fight since neither would be able to hurt each other with fire (Human Torch is immune to fire and Pyro can negate Human Torch's fire)

dogspunk2025-12-28 21:59

A “mature” torch has insane control over flame, much like pyro, and can control heat. He should have bested C Nova as well.

Nepomucky2025-12-28 22:35

In reality? What reality? In our reality they better bring a gun to this fight, just in case.

XComThrowawayAcct2025-12-28 23:28

I like how you included **Stan Lee’s own explanation** then proceeded to powerscale anyway. Impressive.

Lord_Matisaro2025-12-29 01:31

The same way Magneto gets an auto W against adamantium wolverine.

Being human fire is not good when the opponent can control all fire.

AdrunkGirlScout2025-12-29 01:38

> in reality

Sir

blackbutterfree2025-12-29 02:05

Johnny generates fire, but St. John (yes, his first name is SAINT JOHN) controls it.

Johnny can also control fire, but it didn't seem like he knew Pyro could do it too, so he got caught off guard.

Puzzleheaded-Ad27952025-12-29 04:56

He’s a shitty human torch.

KrazyKaas2025-12-29 05:08

Pyro controls all fire something something variants something

Sega_Genitals2025-12-29 06:56

It’s possible because it was a gag. Comedy trumps any superpower logic in Deadpool movies

D4RKL1NGza2025-12-29 10:23

If there is a Deadpool who doesn’t regenerate then there can also be a version of HT who can be snuffed like a candle maybe

Sensibiliaaah2025-12-29 18:01

Because it’s a joke.

DemythologizedDie2025-12-30 21:57

If you take a look at the Human Torch in the Essential Fantastic Four, the Johnny Storm at the start of his career, that guy is a guy who very believably could have been dampened out by Pyro. He really had trouble keeping the fire going. No, there's no particular reason to think that every Johnny in every universe is stronger than every Pyro in every unverse.

In Deadpool &amp; Wolverine; the Human Torch loses to Pyro. How is that even possible?

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In Deadpool & Wolverine; the Human Torch loses to Pyro. How is that even possible?