Anyone else think Doomsday shouldn’t be a massive crossover?
I love Marvel, but I honestly don’t see how Doomsday works if they try to throw everyone into it when so many stories still aren’t connected.
The Infinity Saga worked because the stones and Thanos were always present in the background. Right now the Multiverse Saga has introduced a ton of characters, but there’s no single threat that actually feels tied together yet. If Doomsday turns into another “look who showed up!” movie, especially with legacy cameos, it’s going to feel rushed.
To me, the only way Doomsday makes sense is if it’s basically the collapse, not the big payoff. Like incursions finally start hitting, realities begin breaking down, and everything just goes wrong. If someone like Tobey Maguire shows up, it should be super brief… quick flashes of different universes collapsing, not full team ups or fan service scenes. I just don’t think the real team ups should happen in Doomsday… I think they happen after.
I think post-Doomsday projects could naturally split things up:
• street-level heroes dealing with the fallout on Earth (Daredevil, Falcon, Thunderbolts, etc.)
• cosmic/mystical characters handling the multiverse damage (Strange, Wanda, Thor, Loki)
• other universes doing their own thing (Fantastic Four, X-Men, Deadpool)
Then Secret Wars becomes the actual Endgame-level moment where everything finally collides.
If Marvel tries to cram all of that into Doomsday, it’s going to be messy. If they let Doomsday be the breaking point and save the payoff for Secret Wars, it actually works.
Curious if anyone else feels this way or if I’m just overthinking it… 😂
The Infinity Saga worked because the stones and Thanos were always present in the background. Right now the Multiverse Saga has introduced a ton of characters, but there’s no single threat that actually feels tied together yet. If Doomsday turns into another “look who showed up!” movie, especially with legacy cameos, it’s going to feel rushed.
To me, the only way Doomsday makes sense is if it’s basically the collapse, not the big payoff. Like incursions finally start hitting, realities begin breaking down, and everything just goes wrong. If someone like Tobey Maguire shows up, it should be super brief… quick flashes of different universes collapsing, not full team ups or fan service scenes. I just don’t think the real team ups should happen in Doomsday… I think they happen after.
I think post-Doomsday projects could naturally split things up:
• street-level heroes dealing with the fallout on Earth (Daredevil, Falcon, Thunderbolts, etc.)
• cosmic/mystical characters handling the multiverse damage (Strange, Wanda, Thor, Loki)
• other universes doing their own thing (Fantastic Four, X-Men, Deadpool)
Then Secret Wars becomes the actual Endgame-level moment where everything finally collides.
If Marvel tries to cram all of that into Doomsday, it’s going to be messy. If they let Doomsday be the breaking point and save the payoff for Secret Wars, it actually works.
Curious if anyone else feels this way or if I’m just overthinking it… 😂
Commentaires
The Avengers line of films are specifically the team up / crossover films. There are plenty of other films in the MCU slate that focus on single characters or limited teams. That's not what the Avengers films are for.
The shape of the MCU is an inverted pyramid. The earlier movies have narrower casts because they haven't introduced everyone yet. Then the casts get wider and wider as the MCU itself gets broader. And the Avengers films are always the tentpoles that have the widest reach of the available set. Civil War was also a pseudo-Avengers movie given its scope and cast.
I get it and I get they’re trying to nostalgia bait everyone back into theaters and need a way to continue the story. But I’m much more interested in a different direction, smaller stakes, more personal. We’ve seen half of humanity destroyed and the best of the best in their prime.
Give me the ’Thunderbolts, maybe some street / mid tier heroes and I’d be curious to see what they do when all of the big names are gone and they’re left to fend with even a force like Iron Monger.
They won’t do it and I know why but it would change the dynamic and wouldn’t feel so desperate. Those Disney pockets are deep though
The concern you're describing is actually *identical* to the concern some people had before Infinity War. They thought it would be too much to establish Thanos's motive, have the Avengers & Guardians meet for the first time, and tell the movie's own story.
> The Infinity Saga worked because the stones and Thanos were always present in the background. Right now the Multiverse Saga has introduced a ton of characters, but there’s no single threat that actually feels tied together yet.
Variants & alternate universes & the threat of incursions *have* been in the background throughout this saga, even though Doom himself hasn't:
* Loki and What If: I mean, duh.
* No Way Home: Spidey & Strange accidentally trigger an incursion, meet Peter's variants, & then stop the incursion.
* Multiverse of Madness: Strange sees the aftermath of an incursion his variant caused, Strange himself is accused of causing another incursion, Wanda destroys a multiversal threat.
* Quantumania: The villain is Kang, he's only beatable because he *doesn't* have his time-travel powers, and he alludes to the threat of his variants.
* GotG 3: Gamora *is* a variant.
* The Marvels: Dar-Benn accidentally triggers an incursion, which the heroes then stop, stranding Monica in the universe that we're probably getting the X-Men characters from in Doomsday.
* Deadpool & Wolverine: Wade hops throughout universes to stop his from being murdered.
* Thunderbolts: We see the Fantastic Four arriving in the "main" timeline.
* First Steps: Reed already knows the alternate universes exist & has been working on how to travel between them.
The only thing that's significantly different in the approach here is dropping Kang & bringing in Doom. But if you actually go back & look at Thanos's appearances in the Infinity Saga, he barely does or says *anything* before Infinity War. He has less than 2 minutes of screentime between The Avengers, GotG 1, & Age of Ultron.
* Iron Man 1
* Incredible Hulk
* Iron Man 2
* Thor 1 (except the credit scene)
* Iron Man 3
* Captain America 2
* Ant-Man 1
* Captain America 3
* Spidey Homecoming
* Black Panther 1
* Ant-Man 2 (except the credit scenes)
For comparison, Multiverse Saga movies that don't mention variants or time-travel or incursions or alternate universes at all:
* Black Widow
* Shang-Chi
* Eternals
* Thor 4
* Black Panther 2
* Captain America 4 (except the credit scene)
...hmm, that's actually *fewer*. Let's try shows...
Infinity-Saga-era shows that didn't mention the stones or Thanos at all:
* Daredevil
* Jessica Jones
* Luke Cage
* Iron Fist
* Defenders
* Punisher
* Agent Carter
* Cloak & Dagger
* Runaways
* Inhumans
And now Multiverse Saga shows (so far) that don't mention anything multiversey at all:
* Falcon & Winter Soldier
* Hawkeye
* Moon Knight
* She-Hulk (unless you count IRL Marvel Studios as another universe)
* Secret Invasion
* Echo
* Born Again
* Ironheart
...hmm, that's still fewer.
The Guardians movies develop him another way, even if he's never onscreen, by showing us his children and how he's treated them.
So even though Thanos has next to no screentime, we go into Infinity War knowing what his *conflict* represents, and why we should care. The Avengers are going to have to fight a threat they've been established to be unprepared for (while they're broken up no less) and Gamora's going to have to face her dad. There. Look at how easy that is.
I have no idea what kind of conflict is represented by "incursions" or who it effects on an emotional level or why I should care
I didn't list the Guardians movies.
They literally told us what an incursion is in one of the highest-grossing films of the saga: Multiple universes crash together, at least one of them is destroyed & everyone in it dies. If you don't care about that, that's on you.
Dismissing things as "cope" is cringe.
yeah there's no better writing advice than "if your audience doesn't understand or care about your threat, that's on them bro. don't try to write better or anything, just keep doing what you're doing and don't pay attention to the dwindling box office numbers"
Empathic people don't automatically have empathy for fictional people. I don't care about "billions of people maybe dying" in a made-up story if it's not totally clear what that represents or how it works.
Like, you're *so mad* in your comments that the Multiverse saga's story doesn't connect with people. You can't logic a story into doing that, you have to be a good writer.
This isn't me being mad that the story doesn't connect with you. This is me being confused that you don't know what pretty simple words mean.
I don't think its totally clear how "timelines crashing" makes everyone in them die, or why I should worry if a new timeline with the same people will pop up afterwards (which is the plan anyway right?)
I feel like that should be obvious, like I'm not talking about cancer. I feel like most people who don't spend a lot of time running defense on MCU writing tropes kind of understand this. if you want to show a made-up thing is dangerous you need to *demonstrate it*.
>This is me being confused that you don't know what pretty simple words mean.
I think pretending that anyone who disagrees with you "doesn't know what simple words mean" is kind of a weird hostile thing that only someone really mad would do.
why are you mad? multiverse saga doesn't really work for a lot of people and this is just one of the reasons why. its not your fault, but do you think people are going to go "oh, you're right, I care about the emotional stakes of Multiverse Saga now because this nerd on reddit was condescending to me"
It's important to note that Thanos was heavily involved in the plots of the movies even if he didn't have much screen time. Thanos helped Loki invade earth. Tony's fear of a being like Thanos is what lead to AOU. Gamora and Nebula are Thanos daughters. Ronan collects the power stones for Thanos. Thanos ship appears in Ragnorak. Even Tony's arc in civil war with him wanting to keep the Avengers united to face the unknow is related to Thanos. Everything in the Infinity saga was very intentionally aligned to lead to Thanos. We haven't gotten that for Doom.
Also, no, everything in the Infinity Saga *wasn't* intentionally aligned. They just did a really good job with callbacks in Phase 3 to make Phases 1-2 *look like* they were intentionally aligned.
Infinity-Saga Marvel Studios was improvising ***WAY*** more than some people remember through their rose-colored view of the past. Ironically, the Multiverse Saga was MUCH more tightly planned out, despite the common mistaken fan complaint of "they have no plan", & **that** is why they're struggling more now: With the plan so tightly set in place, they're having a hard time adjusting to audience reactions.
>Also, no, everything in the Infinity Saga *wasn't* intentionally aligned. They just did a really good job with callbacks in Phase 3 to make Phases 1-2 *look like* they were intentionally aligned.
Yeah I agree they did a good job with callbacks and were improvising. But "intentionally aligned" isn't necessary linear. Adjusting phase 3 to align phase 1-2 and have it all connect to Thanos is still intentionally aligning it to lead to Thanos. It's really just semantics to be honest.
>Ironically, the Multiverse Saga was MUCH more tightly planned out, despite the common mistaken fan complaint of "they have no plan", & **that** is why they're struggling more now: With the plan so tightly set in place, they're having a hard time adjusting to audience reactions.
I strongly disagree. The Multiverse Saga is all over the place. Projects like the Eternals were completely scrapped even though they introduced huge lore to the MCU. The entire plot line with Kang was completely scrapped in place for Doctor Doom. We haven't even been introduced to a new Avengers team.
The entire saga was so disconnected they are brining back Chris Evans and RDJ to star in Doomsday because of how bad the lead up has been. Plus they are pretty much making the movie a sequel to Endgame rather than connecting all these plot lines together like how phase 3 did.
> It's really just semantics
"Semantics" is another word for "what words mean", & it's pretty important to know what words mean if one is going to use them, so that's not a good reason to dismiss an argument.
> Projects like the Eternals were completely scrapped even though they introduced huge lore to the MCU.
That simply isn't true. We've had references to the Eternals in several projects since then, off the top of my head: What If, Zombies, Ms. Marvel, GotG Holiday Special, & most prominently Cap 4.
> The entire plot line with Kang was completely scrapped in place for Doctor Doom.
That *is* them finally adjusting to audience reactions, specifically the audience reaction to Quantumania.
> We haven't even been introduced to a new Avengers team.
Thunderbolts.
> Plus they are pretty much making the movie a sequel to Endgame rather than connecting all these plot lines together like how phase 3 did.
You literally ***can't*** know that; you're just making assumptions. We have 1 leaked teaser out of 4, & the teasers aren't going to give away the entire movie.
Except I didn't dismiss it.
>That simply isn't true. We've had references to the Eternals in several projects since then, off the top of my head: What If, Zombies, Ms. Marvel, GotG Holiday Special, & most prominently Cap 4.
Please show me where we will see Eternal characters again. Also where do the post credit scene and Jon snow tease lead? The entire project has been scrapped by the MCU even if there are some references.
>That *is* them finally adjusting to audience reactions, specifically the audience reaction to Quantumania.
It had more to do with the drama around Johnathan Majors.
>Thunderbolts.
So our only reference to an actual Avengers team is the movie where last second the group of bad guys get rebranded to the "new avengers". No wonder this saga wasn't well received.
>You literally ***can't*** know that; you're just making assumptions. We have 1 leaked teaser out of 4, & the teasers aren't going to give away the entire movie.
It's not really assumptions. All legitimate signs point to this movie being more of a sequel to Endgame rather than the multiverse saga. What other point would there be to brining back Steve Rodgers and having a whole teaser of him living with Peggy and holding his baby. It's going to be heavily connected to Endgame's ending.
a) Not seeing characters again does not mean all the lore has been scrapped.
b) The post-credit scene was for setting up Blade; the problem there is the development hell on *that* project.
c) That last sentence contradicts itself.
> It had more to do with the drama around Johnathan Majors.
¿Por qué no los dos?
> So our only reference to an actual Avengers team is the movie where last second the group of bad guys get rebranded to the "new avengers". No wonder this saga wasn't well received.
Now you're just being snotty.
> It's not really assumptions. All legitimate signs point to this movie being more of a sequel to Endgame rather than the multiverse saga. What other point would there be to brining back Steve Rodgers and having a whole teaser of [UNMARKED SPOILER WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU]. It's going to be heavily connected to Endgame's ending.
It is really assumptions, because, again, **the teasers aren't going to give away the entire movie.**
You seem to mistakenly think this is an either-or situation. It isn't. It can connect to Endgame *and also* connect to the Multiverse Saga.
>It is really assumptions, because, again, **the teasers aren't going to give away the entire movie.** You seem to mistakenly think this is an either-or situation. It isn't. It can connect to Endgame *and also* connect to the Multiverse Saga.
I never said it wouldn't connect both. Just that it would connect more to endgame. Obviously the teaser aren't going to give away the plot of the movie but we can look at credible reports and interviews to get a good idea. For example, Anthony Mackie even said the movie is going to pick up the emotional end of Endgame and turn it to chaos. That heavily implies it will be more of a sequel to Endgame than the mutiverse saga.
They've already established the dead celestial as their source for adamantium. Unless some future project *changes* that, the concept remains in the story.
Do they think people were excited for IW because a bunch of Marvel nerds yelled at them to be excited, or because the conflict was set up beforehand?
Dr. Doom wasn't even supposed to be the main villain of The Multiverse Saga. That was supposed to be Kang the Conqueror. Let say if Jonathan Majors was not convict of his assault and being clean, Marvel Studios would still move forward with the plan to have Kang as the main villain despite Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania bombed in box office and Avengers 5 remain as Avengers: The Kang Dynasty.
All you've done is talk about variants and alternate timelines; none of these things demonstrate why they're dangerous. The only inclination we get is in MoM when we hear about how an incursion can destroy a timeline, but we don't really see it.
Loki and Quantumania don't demonstrate the threat of incursions, they demonstrate the threat of This One Guy whose not in the movies anymore.
Like, I feel like I've followed this movies pretty closely and I have honestly no idea what an incursion is really like, or how it happens, or why it will likely happen soon, or why I should even care (I mean its all getting reset anyway right? so why does anything matter at all?)
To conclude big arcs,
They won’t deviate from the comic too much as they re huge fans of both secret wars so expect Battleworld doom and strange working together lots,
LOKI, and hopefully some fun with spiderman and wolverine!!!
The only reason the first two avengers movies aren't that big was simply because there weren't enough heroes introduced yet.
That's the branding we're going with and the expectations that come when a movie is titled "Avengers".
We can have smaller groups of heroes in smaller projects but to avoid confusion they should be called something else like The Defenders or Thunderbolts*.
I agree.