Marvel Set Up Sam Wilson for Failure

Ok this is going to be a long one and I’m just siting here thinking about it. Steve gave Sam the Shield in endgame, and that got mixed reviews but I think majority were alright with it. Then we have the tv show Falcon and The Winter Soldier which is his character arc. After that WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME WE SAW HIM!?!! Peggy Carter has more appearances than him! Then we get to the Brave New World Movie, I think it’s alright but I can understand why people don’t and call it trash! Then we have the thunderbolts which was a great movie. But the post credit scene I feel seals the coffin for people not to like him. You know Sam already gets hate but what they did in thunderbolts made my fucking blood boil!!! You’re telling me we couldn’t get better writers for him??? Am I the only one that feels like this? Please let me know.

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Commentaires

Myhtological2025-11-25 05:44

Yes they did. I think if another Capetian America movie happens, it will be Sam. But the new Steve rogers will be the avengers cap.

sm_8922025-11-25 05:45

If Russos made cap brave new world then it wouldnt be mid like what we got , them and Stephen mcfelly understands what a captain America should be about a thrilling spy thriller not the bs brave new world writers wrote

Former_Review81642025-11-25 05:49

[deleted]

DigificWriter2025-11-25 06:11

"I think the Russo brothers write Sam the best"

The Russo Brothers aren't writers.

Former_Review81642025-11-25 06:17

Oh sorry had a brain fart during my rant

eagc72025-11-25 06:13

Markus and McFeely are the writers of the films the Russos made at Marvel. (TWS, CW, IW and Endgame)

Former_Review81642025-11-25 06:18

Yea you’re right, sorry I forgot, just upset they couldn’t get them back.

SadHumbleFlower272025-11-25 05:50

Yeah, I agree Marvel hasn’t done him any favors.

FATWS should have been a movie. Sam officially becoming Captain America was an important moment that needed to be on the big screen.

Brave New World basically being an Incredible Hulk sequel was a poor choice.

And yeah that Thunderbolts* post credit scene makes him seem pretty lame.

Out of all the teams confirmed for Doomsday, I’m the least excited for Sam’s Avengers. Hopefully the movie changes my mind.

X-WingAtAliciousnes12025-11-25 06:07

Sam struggling to claim the Cap mantle would've been a more interesting first movie than BNW. The storyline was also not long enough for a show. It could've been done in a 2 hour movie. But they needed some content fodder for their new D+ streaming service.

labbla2025-11-25 06:29

Yes we needed to see him become Captain America in a movie. They need to spotlight all the big players who are important to the universe working. Give Sam a movie foiling some Neo Hydra plot with Bucky and Yelena as key players and you could really have something.

Moist-Illustrator-572025-11-25 06:30

I’d have loved a film centered on Bucky and Sam. I’ve rewatched the show several times and my only complaint is that it feels dragged out which a movie wouldn’t.

bNW was such a piece of shit I’d put it as my least favorite Marvel. I have t seen The Marvels or Shang Chi but I’m sure it’s worse.

Also why no Bucky other than the cameo. Pretty sure a supersoldier with a vibration arm could be useful against red hulk

FewWatermelonlesson02025-11-25 05:51

It’s utterly insane they made a movie about a character called Captain America and then were terrified to explore anything even slightly political in it.

Wooden-Radish-90082025-11-25 07:54

The whole movie is about trying to have faith serving an untrustworthy government

vfoster2025-11-25 05:56

I agree, although with a bit less conviction. Brave New World was okay, but one of those few MCU films I may take years to rewatch. It kinda feels like the character was left to hang out to dry, and kinda setup up to fail filling those big shoes.

I'm personally against superhero mantles- just let the Falcon be the Falcon (but with Cap colors). It's like they got it completely backward- retire the T'Challa Black Panther character, but somehow let a sidekick character fill in for one of the MCU's headlining characters.

Former_Review81642025-11-25 06:09

I agree with you on brave new world. It’s like they wanted it to fail, there were so many rewrites and reshoots!

SpeedBlitzX2025-11-25 06:05

I got a crazy question, remember when The new captain America movie was titled "Captain America New World Order" before it got changed to Brave new world.

Anyone else wonder if New World Order would've been a completely different movie?

eagc72025-11-25 06:11

We do know alot was changed, like the Serpent Society was gonna be an team of cybernetic supervillains, instead of some black ops team (Change was made too late that they still made some merch for at least one member of the original society), appearently Amadeus Cho was gonna be in it as being the one that studied the pills that Leader was giving Ross instead of Dennis Dunphy we even have some set pics of the Stark Industries set that was gonna be used for the scenes with Cho (though we don't know who was the actor that would've played him), The Leader had a comic accurate design instead of just him having his brain sticking out. again the change was made tooo late that you can buy merch that features his comic accurate look

SeekerVash2025-11-25 20:17

Also Sabra was a major character, but they pretty much cut that whole character out.

SpeedBlitzX2025-11-25 22:16

Thank you for the heads up!!

tangodeep2025-11-25 06:05

Sam was done an injustice by over promoting other characters and trying to make them headliners. captain Carter is the primary person. Captain America could’ve been eased in more organically if he were featured in What If and other things.

TF&TWS should’ve been a film, but was also ok as a show, as there were a lot of bust pieces in that.

Moist-Illustrator-572025-11-25 06:27

Sam was a bad choice. I believe it would have been more financially viable to have a Falcon movie. Hell even a prequel could’ve been cool. Fighting in Iraq against jets could be fucking sweet. Throw in a supervillain who is also tech based, got yourself a flick that doesn’t waste the Captain America Name.

I can genuinely say this is the worst marvel movie I’ve seen. Tbf I did not watch the Marvels or Shang Chi

LittleCupcake24782025-11-25 06:39

He could be such a great character and anchor for the MCU if utilized more frequently.

Crater_Raider2025-11-25 06:47

My biggest problem with Sam is how they’re very vocal about him not taking the super soldier formula, but having him do impossible feats anyway.
Getting stabbed in the chest, lifting cars, going hand to hand with super soldiers and hulks- the narrative means nothing, but they won’t shut up about it.

spidervenom6192025-11-26 06:33

Oh you meant the very same "impossible" feats that Natasha, Clint, Nick F, Phil Coulson, Tony Stark without his suit, Rhodey without his Suit, Banner, etc. all did.

Crater_Raider2025-11-26 06:52

Natasha to some degree yes. Particularly in her movie.

But the others-no? I don’t recall coulson or banner or Clint or Tony or Rhodes going hand to hand with hulks or super soldiers, or catching fists from them, or lifting cars, or shrugging off serious stab wounds to the chest- definitely not Coulson on the last one.
And Natasha took a single hit from a hulk and was knocked on her ass.

And none of them were going on about being a normal person without enhancements the whole time.
It’s also unclear if the Black Widows have enhancements.

labbla2025-11-26 18:30

In Iron Man 3 Tony falls multiple times into fiery metal that should kill him or cripple him forever. These are comic book movies not realistic documentaries about living in the Marvel Universe. Suspending disbelief should be easy for stuff like this. He also would have died crashing in his original suit in Iron Man 1.

I could go on through pretty much every MCU movie. These things aren't realistic and are not meant to be watched that way. Infinity Stones also don't exist, neither do Skrulls or Asgard. Super Soldier Serum is not a real thing. The fact a guy is fighting a Hulk in the first place is already against reality because radiation mostly just kills you.

If all you want is realism you might want to stick to dramas or documentaries or something.

Crater_Raider2025-11-26 19:07

There should still be a baseline of believability.
Otherwise, I don't understand why Black widow didn't just crush Thanos's head between her thighs and end the whole thing.

I can believe Tony's Scifi armor protects him from heat.

What Sam does is the equivalent of saying " don't have eyebeams" then frying everyone with his eyebeams.

By your measure, there's no such thing as a bad movie. Because all movies are fake, so whatever happens makes sense even if it breaks its own established rules.
There's no "how are they going to get out of this?" because the characters by your measure, can do anything and survive anything.

There's no sense of danger, or risk, because there are no rules.

I just like good story telling. I guess you have lower standards.

labbla2025-11-27 01:13

Well if you're only judging a movie by realism than yes there are no bad movies. Because all movies are fake, especially ones that take place in crazy superhero worlds with gods and monsters and crazy super science. It's all about the vibe and the storytelling not about how likely something is to happen.

Judge a movie by it's craft and how well everything works for you, not if it would happen to a person or not.

And I'm talking about ol' human tony jumping around and constantly falling into exploding metal without a suit at the end of Iron man 3.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drEpGhwvUV8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drEpGhwvUV8)

There are no rules here. There sure aren't in comics. Marvel already has tons of get out of jail free cards with the Multiverse and what not. Superheroes are meant to go on forever by design and none of them stay dead forever.

Crater_Raider2025-11-27 02:36

I never said I was talking about Realism. I'm talking about believability. They are two different things.
Superman is a good movie because "you will believe a man can fly"
Not literally believe, but within the world, and the rules it sets for itself. It's not realistic for superman to fly, but I can believe in it.

typically these stories set and display their own rules, and writers try not to contradict themselves.

Hulk is super strong, he can do amazing feats like jumping miles at a time and lifting cars.

But according to you, everyone can do that, so what makes the hulk special?

Sure characters can die and show up again with no explanation- but thats called bad writing. Usually comic Editors help enforce these "rules" that don't exist.

Maybe Tony took survived some hits he shouldn't have- that would be shitty too. But generally, things do happen in a realm of believability. If Tony got his head blown off and grew a new one- that would be bullshit, unless they wrote SOME explanation for how he did it.

And the major part of my argument you continue to ignore and not address-
Sam's whole Narrative is if he should take the Super Soldier Serum, and can he be effective without it.
This whole narrative is rendered moot since the writing also treats him as though he has.
That is the biggest reason why it matters more for Sam, and why he's fundamentally broken.

"Judge a movie by it's craft and how well everything works for you, not if it would happen to a person or not."

That's what I am doing dude. It doesn't work for me. I think the craft is sloppy.

Responsible_Egg75192025-11-25 07:21

I agree, but I don’t think I can blame Sam for his actions referenced in the post credit scene since he likely doesn’t have the full story. I doubt that Bucky was very forthcoming about the circumstances that the team is under (bringing Val down requires exposing the crimes they did for her as well as Bob’s entire existence—they’re essentially deadlocked), so from Sam’s perspective it probably looks like Bucky declined to join his team only to appear on TV with a bunch of criminals—including John Walker of all people—operating under the Avengers name while working for Val, who’s corrupt ass he was supposed to help apprehend. It makes sense that he’d be pissed.

mosh_pit_nerd2025-11-25 16:04

Marvel Studios has generally treated their minority and women lead characters and their projects poorly. Maybe an Iger hangover, maybe a response to online shitbirds, probably a bit of both, but it’s a pretty consistent pattern.

Mando1998882025-11-25 16:04

I can understand this sentiment because I can relate this with John Walker. Introducing a 2nd Captain America in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier was a mistake and at the very end of Sam’s show and showing the importance of him finally accepting the role of Captain America they undermine him when Valentina tellls John at the very end that America won’t need Captain America they’ll need a US Agent.

Then Marvel gave John Walker and Bucky Thunderbolts forming their own Avengers team while Sam’s team is former off screen and won’t be seen until Avengers: Doomsday when both teams will be in the movie. On top of that having Chris Evans apparently playing a big role in Avengers: Doomsday potentially returning as Steve Rogers.

Overall point the people who hate Sam will love John & Steve when even John Walker had seemingly better character development in the Multiverse Saga than Sam

SeekerVash2025-11-25 20:34

They made a lot of mistakes here with Sam.

* Through the whole Infinity Saga they telegraphed that Bucky would succeed Steve as Captain America. The whole fight with Ironman in Civil War at the end was clearly telegraphing it, with Bucky sharing the shield with Steve.
* Falcon was a very minor character after Winter Soldier, he appears for a couple of minutes here and there, and does nothing of consequence. He was all but written out of the MCU.
* Worse, the few times they showed him, they showed him in a fairly poor light. He is faced with an unarmed man with advanced technology attempting diplomacy and responds by attacking, and quickly escalates to attempting to murder the guy with guns for example.
* Then suddenly they just switch him to Captain America out of the blue. He wasn't even a major character in the movie they switched him in.
* Then we get the whole "He won't take the super-serum" thing which causes even bigger problems, because we now have the equivalent of an NFL running back tanking hits that'd kill any normal human.

They really did set him up for failure, they should've stuck with the plan for Bucky to take over and explored the Falcon character as his own character instead of trying to suddenly shoe-horn him into the spotlight role.

A Falcon character who has seen too much war and lost too many friends to it is massively more interesting, especially when you connect that to Wanda's experience. Wanda was clearly suffering PTSD from war, and Falcon's intro was managing people suffering PTSD from war. There was an extremely powerful story there for Falcon that would've graduated him into a major character aligned with Wanda, playing out the "Broken by the events in Infinity Saga" angle and a much better connection than trying to fit Dr. Strange into that direction.