When it comes to the MCU, Is Helstrom in a Legion or Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man situation?
What I mean by that is that the showrunner of Helstrom said that the show is not canon to the MCU, but is that a Legion or a Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man situation. The former is a show made by Marvel Television with no association to the MCU at all, the latter is a non-canon show that is a part of the MCU (franchise).
Helstrom was meant to be a part of Adventure Into Fear, which was Marvel Television's horror brand, and was meant to connect to an Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D. kind of spinoff in Ghost Rider, alongside two other shows in a The Defenders-like crossover, however those plans fell apart when Marvel Studios took over, Helstrom was released without the Marvel branding, and was essentially just another show on Hulu.
So when it comes to Helstrom and the MCU, is it a Legion or a Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man situation?
Helstrom was meant to be a part of Adventure Into Fear, which was Marvel Television's horror brand, and was meant to connect to an Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D. kind of spinoff in Ghost Rider, alongside two other shows in a The Defenders-like crossover, however those plans fell apart when Marvel Studios took over, Helstrom was released without the Marvel branding, and was essentially just another show on Hulu.
So when it comes to Helstrom and the MCU, is it a Legion or a Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man situation?
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AC is also the only show that Fiege, Russo bros and the writers of the three Captain America movies + IW & EG worked on.
The writers even said they picked the specific year Cap returned to the past so it would be after S2 of AC.
I don't know how much more canon something could get without being spelled out.
I just go with the idea that season 6 takes place post-snap its just that no one mentions it, which is admittedly incredibly awkward but not impossible. Its kinda like dealing with a major crisis in 2021, the pandemic isnt going to be at the top of your mind
However he did imply Agents of Shield was rather part of the marvel multiverse if not sacred timeline.
At the time of making AoS it was absolutely intended to be canon. The notion that it is not is because of a mistake due to miscommunication between Studios and then Marvel TV. Marvel Studios kept the ending of Endgame secret from Marvel TV. AoS should not pay for Marvel Studios’ mistake.
The last season of AoS actually makes it a huge point (Fitz explains this and they use the exact same time travel rules of Endgame so no inconsistency there) that the agents returned to the original sacred timeline. A lot of people unknowingly perpetuate that it branched away from 616 and it seems Marvel Studios believes it too. They point out the ending scene wasn’t apocalyptic like Endgame. It can easily be explained with a time-skip post Endgame. About Shield being back, I think they didn’t do anything substantial with SWORD so SHEILD should just be back and not a single soul will complain.
Maurissa Tancheron and Jed Whedon did some of the best writing in the whole MCU, it absolutely deserves to be canon. Kevin Feige blacklisted AoS because of Joss Whedon but he was never creatively involved in the show in fact he hated that they decided to make a show about Shield. AoS should not be sacrificed because of him. I hope Feige gets off his high horse and realises this.
Feige also said himself they are canon around Age of Ultron’s time.
Now they rolled the defenders back. I was cheering on the defendersverse as MCU, I remember at the time the members of this sub bullied me that the defenders aren’t good enough for the MCU and that those TV actors aren’t good for movies.
I held faith that Charlie Cox’s presence could stand toe to toe with any Avengers actor of the movies (Kevin Feige also praised his Daredevil). Not just him, Jon Bernthal, Krysten Ritter and Mike Colter are movie level counterparts of the characters. Now we have Jon’s Punisher in Spider-Man.
My confidence in Defenders characters wasn’t misplaced. I also think Finn Jones can Iron Fist. Let’s see where it goes. Now there are many fans but back then we defenders fans felt like a step child of Marvel.
I always viewed all the shows as canon, and still do too. I agree with your perspective on them.
There are two MCUs. Or rather, the term "MCU" (meaning Marvel Cinematic Universe in both instances) refers to two different things: The first is the franchise created by Marvel Entertainment. The other is the continuity of said movies, which is now referred to as the Sacred Timeline (Earth-199999/616).
To better understand this: When this franchise was created, there was no "Sacred Timeline" in that sense because there was only one timeline, and everything produced in Phase 1 was a part of both (save for TIH, but that was not important at any time), so there was no need to distinguish. Nowadays, shows and movies like Deadpool & Wolverine, Your Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man, What If...?/Marvel Zombies and Fantastic Four: First Steps are all part of the MCU (franchise), but not on the Sacred Timeline, so thereby "not a part of the MCU".
Marvel Studios (which is what it's called since the fusion of Marvel Entertainment and Marvel Television, which were separate entities) has always referred to their projects as the MCU, so projects they didn't own weren't referred to as a part of the MCU (so, the FoX-Men universe, obviously, but also The Incredible Hulk, the Netflix shows, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., Agent Carter and those shows), despite being a part of the same continuity (the MCU, meaning the Sacred Timeline). They were always intended to be that and there were crossovers, but with Marvel becoming a fast-growing fandom, they became more secretive of their plans and they wished they hadn't sold all those character rights to other studios, so the collaboration between Marvel Television and Marvel Entertainment became less and less over time, leading to the AoS S5/S6 jump and other overlaps like Tina Minoru, Mockingbird etc.
In late 2019/early 2020, they were then able to fuse those two companies. They created Marvel Studios and broadened their roster, now creating TV shows as well, something they hadn't done before. In the Phase 4 announcement, Kevin Feige (CEO of Marvel Studios and producer on all MCU franchise projects, nicknamed "architect of the MCU"), he announced that for the first time, they could have characters and storylines crossing over and leading from movies to shows and back, which they couldn't do before. The online news blog ScreenRant, on the hunt for a major headline, used this quote to start an avalanche of "THE SHOWS ARE NO LONGER CANON!", and every other influencer jumped on the train.
Before the merger, Jeph Loeb was the CEO of Marvel Television and in charge of all the shows. He didn't know about the merger and was, surprising to him and everyone else, fired one random day along with every other employee at Marvel Television. All future planned shows (including a New Warriors show, more seasons for the Netflix shows and a subset of shows titled "Adventure into Fear" including a Ghost Rider show and Helstrom) were then suddenly cancelled. Helstrom however was already so far into production that they finished it and released it anyway. Around this time, the showrunner Paul Zbyszewski was hearing conflicting things about this show. He didn't really know what was going on and after firing everyone, Marvel Studios took over production of the show. He knew the show was originally intended to be a part of the MCU continuity, but because of everything going on, he figured it no longer was and was now just supposed to be it's own thing, so that's what he shared in interviews.
This is only a part of the debate, however. The show's title was changed from Marvel's Helstrom to just Helstrom. There was little to no marketing for the show from Marvel Studios. There were a lot of references to the MCU in the show, but it is never referenced ever again in any media and any plans for a second season were scrapped. For a very long time, it wasn't tagged as superhero or Marvel on Disney+, it was just a random supernatural show no one watched. There's no released soundtrack for the show and barely anyone talks about it.
So, is the show a part of the MCU franchise? Possibly. We don't really know, it's ambiguous at best. Is it on the Sacred Timeline and will we ever see the characters again? Almost certainly not. So therefore it's probably best to just enjoy it as its own thing.
I mean where does Deadpool and Wolverine sit? It's confusing af
I think this would apply to all of the old Fox movies, many of which were shown or referenced in Deadpool and Wolverine, as well as the Sony Spider-Man movies, which crossed into the MCU during No Way Home. These are still their own timelines in the Marvel Multiverse, but not the same characters and/or events from the main MCU timeline.
I don't honestly know what, if any, Agent Carter or Agents of SHIELD events will be considered part of the MCU main timeline, as it seems like Feigi has opted to keep those as separate timelines. I like the theory that Agents of SHIELD was in the MCU timeline until they started messing with the time travel, but that is not a confirmed theory.
My understanding is it's the same situation as Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. where it's canon until stated otherwise.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, on the other hand, is an alternative version of the events of the MCU with references such as the arrival of Norman Osborn as if he were Tony Stark, as well as multiversal-themed advertising in Disney amusement parks where this animated version is seen alongside that of the real actors.
Regardless, I recommend not watching Helstrom and watching this animated version of Spiderman, at first you have to get used to the 3D style but the script is great.
Nothing contradicts it, and chronologically - Based on dates found on newspapers - it falls in 2020, completely out of the way to affect anything. I don't see any harm in allowing it to have a place amongst everything else. Besides, at this point, whatever does come along to contradict it will come after Secret Wars, and I'm sure there'll be plenty of other changes to come with that either way.
Ironically the fact that it's so distinctly disconnected from most (if not all) MCU media means it can just be seamlessly thrown into the timeline without much handweaving lol
Helstrom is the only one that doesn't have...a connection to the broader MCU.
It CAN. There are smaller references that connects it, but its paired up with another show.
Its harmless in the way it doesnt...HURT the timeline if I remember.
I think it should be canon. And maybe it could be in a midnight suns team up, I think that would be cool.
We'd literally need ONE reference or Easter egg for Erik Voss to mention and then boom, it'd be canon to the broader base.
Its a cool show Imo. I thinknpeople should add this to their rewatches.
To put it simply, Helstrom was planned to be canon but shifted to being non-canon.
YFNS is non-canon to the main timeline but is an alternate version of the MCU, essentially revisionist history.
And it may not seem like it, but Legion was actually also made to be an alternate version of the Fox X-Men universe. The major difference being that Charles became a soldier instead of a professor. They even planned for James McAvoy to reprise the role but was unavailable.
So basically, Helstrom is 100% dropped from being canon, while YFNS and Legion are alternate canon from their main timelines.
'Legion' is a standalone series from the Fox X-Men franchise (not directly connected to the film continuity).
YFNS is a standalone animated series that alludes to Civil War, as it was originally intended to be part of the MCU continuity but was later reworked.
Regarding Helstrom, the series was planned to be part of a new MCU saga, but with the saga's cancellation, Disney opted to remove the most direct references to other MCU content (such as the canceled Ghost Rider series) in post-production, as well as avoiding the use of the Marvel brand in branding. It's assumed to take place during the blip, given the dates presented in the series, so it's up to you to decide.
These all had a representation of the Darkhold.
In other words, at an official level, it's not made clear what its association with the MCU is. But contrary to popular belief, that makes it easy for the higher-ups to fit it into canon... if they ever want to. Helstrom is to the MCU as New Mutants is to the X-Men Revised Timeline; their stories are obscure enough and set in different enough locations that that's possible. So speaking as a writer, canonicity is never the problem, it's about whether it fits into the grand marketing plan with net PR gain.
Helstrom was supposed to be a Constantine-level story. I think if it was introduced at a time when Werewolf By Night was introduced, it would have had a better chance of gaining interest among viewers. But that's assuming they were going in on the "dark MCU" stuff, which they tried... with Blade. Only time will tell now.