It's not acknowledged enough that this saga was meant to be over THIS year

"Aimless"..."No story"..."Desperate".

These are common criticisms about the Multiverse Saga. But while it might *feel* that way sometimes, too much of the blame is put in the wrong places. Marvel isn't just winging it, making it up as they go along. What we've been seeing play out is an elaborate, committee-drawn plan getting torn up by unforeseen circumstances and getting stitched back together again and again.

https://preview.redd.it/45fkqedpucvf1.jpg?width=950&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=809689c8b1689508e0d1ed353ac0e0d0840db888

What people often forget is that *Avengers: Secret Wars* was originally supposed to release **this fall**. Had COVID and a list of other obstacles not been factors, this saga might've *already* been over. Looking back:

**2018:** Projects like *Loki*, *What If...?* and *Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness* enter development. **Regardless of what happened with Fox, the Multiverse Saga was always next.**

(Joe Russo also publicly pitches *Secret Wars* with still Fox-owned IP. And the internal pitch document for *Loki* included still Fox-owned Kang variant Victor Timely.)

**2019:** Feige states they have a "five-year plan" to follow up *Spider-Man: Far From Home*. This would take Marvel from **2020** through **2024**.

**2020:** COVID halts everything. But let's pretend it didn't. *Black Widow* and *Eternals* would be coming out. And if James Gunn was never fired, *Guardians of the Galaxy vol.3* was supposedly on track to release this year too. The next four years would see the release of everything from *Shang-Chi* to *Fantastic Four*.

(Notice how there's suddenly these long gaps in the release schedule? It's conveniently attributed to a focus on quality over quantity. But Marvel's not necessarily slowing down because of bad reviews; they're slowing down because they can only stretch out their intended five-year plan so far without adding content for the sake of content. **THAT** is why they are focusing on "quality over quantity".)

**2022:** Feige announces at SDCC that *Avengers: The Kang Dynasty* and *Avengers: Secret Wars* will wrap up the Multiverse Saga, both releasing in **2025**.

(That same year, Feige contacted RDJ about a return to the MCU as Dr. Doom, **before** the Majors drama and **before** *Quantumania* underwhelmed audiences. Doom was *always* coming.)

No COVID.

No Gunn firing.

No Hollywood strikes.

No Majors controversy.

No development hell for Blade.

If none of those things happened, this saga definitely would've been denser, but it would have had a clearer and tighter overarching story and I suspect less people would be calling it "directionless". "Too short" or with too many "missed opportunities", perhaps. But we wouldn't have much time to complain about that because *X-Men* would be coming up right away.

Whatever story they have in mind for *Avengers: Secret Wars*, it was *never* going to get a ten-year build like *Infinity War* and *Endgame*.

**The Multiverse Saga was supposed to be** ***half*** **as long as the Infinity Saga.**

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Commentaires

grill_smoke2025-10-16 01:01

GarySoneji2025-10-16 01:07

They want all these sequels and talk about how it’s been so long since something happened, but don’t acknowledge that it’s only been four years in universe for the characters.

DragonflyMaximum97822025-10-16 01:13

That's not true at all. Just the time jump in Endgame alone was 5 years. I think the current year in-universe is like 2028 or something.

GarySoneji2025-10-16 01:48

WandaVision was late 2023 and Thunderbolts was late 2027. Doomsday will be at the end of 2028.

FictionFantom2025-10-16 01:14

Apparently Brave New World takes place in 2027 and I'm like...why? It feels like skipping ahead for no reason. Iron Man 1 and 2 takes place within six months of each other.

santa99912025-10-16 03:09

What relevance does in universe time have on them taking to long to continue stories?

GarySoneji2025-10-16 04:36

The usual comparison is “by x time in Infinity Saga, x had happened.” It took four years for Fury to assemble the Avengers. The “payoff” didn’t always come as quickly as people pretend.

But, mostly, it’s the was the two Sagas are contrasted. Infinity was from 2008-2018/2023 (taking 11 years, ending 15 years later.) The Multiverse has been going for four to five years and will end after seven to eight years have passed, but still only four to five in universe.

IntrinsicGamer2025-10-16 01:12

I always thought it was being rushed and that it always *should* have had as much (if not more) build up as the Infinity Saga.

Even before we knew it would be a multiverse saga, hell, as far back as 2016, I was hoping they’d do an adaptation of Secret Wars (2015) but instead of the Ultimate Universe and 616, it be the FoX-Men universe and the MCU, but even in that I’d always wanted SW to be a trilogy, with at least 2-3 Fantastic Four films prior.

Going into this with ZERO established relationship between Doom and Reed is absolutely rushed.

FictionFantom2025-10-16 01:17

Yes, but also remember how long the "Age" of Ultron was and how underwhelming the Secret "Invasion" was. It shouldn't surprise anyone at this point that Doom was never going to be in six movies before Secret Wars.

lolzidop2025-10-16 04:29

Not even Thanos got 6 films, he got 2 "appearances" at the very end of films and 3 actual appearances, one of which was a minor role as a secondary antagonist.

UnnecessaryFeIIa2025-10-16 02:25

It’s actually unbelievable that there’s little discussion regarding Reed and Doom’s rivalry when people speculate about Doomsday. It’s more so how “imagine how Tom Holland’s Spider-Man is gonna feel seeing RDJ!”

IntrinsicGamer2025-10-16 02:35

Right? It’s legitimately one of (if not THE) biggest reasons I think they’ve already fucked this whole thing up.

Mizerous2025-10-16 13:58

I mean at this point that's the best you're getting with RDJ Doom just put him against the Avengers.

SeanO542025-10-16 01:17

Yeah I think the impact of COVID on the MCU is huge and is underestimated now of days.

SeekerVash2025-10-16 02:01

I don't.

I don't think Covid prevented the writers from crafting good narratives. That's what the problem is.

In fact, Covid probably saved them. Were it not for Covid, they'd have been much deeper than 1 movie into Kang when the actor went off the deep end and getting out would've been much harder.

Orion141592025-10-16 02:32

That's when you just recast Kang and move along

GarySoneji2025-10-16 02:52

It’s about the delays. If not for the pandemic, and later on the writers strike, this Saga would have been done in 2024 or 2025 at the pace they were setting.

Covid was the first pause that created narrative changes. Multiverse of Madness was completely rewritten. No Way Home was altered.

SeekerVash2025-10-16 03:16

The writing still would've been terrible, Covid didnt make their writing bad.

koreawut2025-10-16 06:57

Honestly? It did.

The writing is bad mostly due to a temporary pushing of agendas that specifically started because people had too much time on their hands and felt like committing arson and murder and attempting to block the very little transport logistics we had.

Without the pandemic, FatWS would have had more episodes with a clearer story because there would have been zero fear of making sympathetic woman of color the leader of riots but still THE BAD GUY. Without the pandemic, nobody would've felt it necessary to show a fairly well-known hero getting denied a fairly small business loan. Without the pandemic, REAL WRITERS could've written about racism. REAL WRITERS could have led She-Hulk's writer's room in a "sexism is bad" kinda way without being a PSA for children like D.A.R.E.

The pandemic 100% hurt Black Widow. It 100% hurt Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It 100% hurt She-Hulk.

Regardless one's opinion on politics or masks or the right for people to go out in massive demostrations, the fact those demostrations were even allowed to happen, maskless after a mask mandate, after a 6 foot mandate, to disrupt supply lines and other, worse things? Yeah, you immediately adjust fire, and usually with a knee-jerk while pointing at the first person who says they agree with everything that is socially corrwct to agree with. Nobody needed a background, or talent, or experience. They just needed to say, "I agree with them," because that's what execs believed was the social direction.

Again, any decent writer could have done all of those stories justice, but most decent writers know better than to push agendas. That is literally why they are better than what we got.

themickeym2025-10-16 07:46

Tell me you don’t understand any of this without telling me.

Edboy7962025-10-16 03:42

Some of their releases were swapped too, I believe, right? Something like Dr. Strange 2 would have come out before No Way Home or something like that

eagc72025-10-16 07:40

Yeah MoM was meant to be first

LostWithoutSpace2025-10-16 08:11

No way home was supposed to come out after multiverse of madness. Imagine how different it was supposed to be? Imagine how different Strange would've been?

abellapa2025-10-16 12:57

I doubt would be that much different

The bigger difference would be that América Chávez does the spell instead of Strange

Thats pretty much it

BagofBabbish2025-10-16 05:44

The thing is you’re not wrong. She-Hulk wasn’t bad because of Covid. Secret invasion wasn’t a bad show becuase of Covid. The marvels didn’t bomb becuase of Covid.

Marvel made a lot of dumb gambles. Namingly that you can go through entire phases with no event film and not expect to lose cultural relevance. That you can treat superhero’s as mantles without losing large chunks of the audience. That the low stakes formulaic comedy won’t get old.

Ultimately, this whole situation showed that Fiege bought into his own hype.

PartridgeInDisguise2025-10-16 06:22

She-Hulk wasn’t bad to begin with.

Peevesie2025-10-16 07:23

She hulk wasn’t bad at all. It was funny and sitcomy

abellapa2025-10-16 12:57

She-Hulk was good

Moralio2025-10-16 07:16

I agree with you. Covid delayed things, and this is exactly why Marvel should have delayed things. We really didin't need that barrage of movies and tv shows. All of that could be released later.

eagc72025-10-16 07:40

Disney: But...but we needed content for D+

LeoNickle2025-10-16 07:28

Can you imagine if endgame came out during COVID

hemareddit2025-10-16 17:05

You know the insanity is Iron Man was released as the world was coming out of the subprime mortgage crisis and Endgame was released less than a year before COVID hit (Far From Home, technically part of the saga, cut it even closer). The period between two major recessions was just enough to fit in the entire Infinity Saga.

They could not have timed this better if they tried. Like if someone wrote this as a fictional story about the rise of a movie studio, the plot point would be criticized as being too unrealistic.

mslauren29302025-10-16 19:27

Can you imagine if Endgame had been delayed because of COVID? If we had had to wait years between IW and Endgame…

cardiffman1002025-10-16 10:21

r/boneappletea

RalphMacchio4042025-10-16 12:39

COVID and Disney+. Disney wanting new streaming stuff really messed with plans.

TelenorTheGNP2025-10-16 01:22

Interesting. Have a downvote.

j1h152332025-10-16 01:27

All this really highlights for me is how lucky they were the first ten years. Aside from a few recastings along the way, everything went to plan.

FictionFantom2025-10-16 01:31

Not exactly. Ant-Man was delayed over and over. (Actually Ant-Man was among the first titles to be put into development in the MCU). Black Widow, Captain Marvel and Black Panther would've gotten made sooner under less prejudiced Disney leadership. Inhumans was pushed on to Feige when he had no plans for them. AoS being canon/not canon. Firing Gunn.

SeekerVash2025-10-16 02:09

>Black Widow, Captain Marvel and Black Panther would've gotten made sooner under less prejudiced Disney leadership. Inhumans was pushed on to Feige when he had no plans for them. AoS being canon/not canon.

Some thoughts...

1. Do we have any evidence of this prejudice? We know Feige was at war with Perlmutter and it sounds like a political tactic to me. I'm struggling to believe that the guy who was in charge of Agents of Shield (three strong women one of whom is a minority, two major minority male characters), Agent Carter ( strong woman as lead), Luke Cage (as heavily minority as Black Panther), Iron Fist (minority female lead and multiple major female characters), Cloak & Dagger (female lead, minority male lead) was too racist/sexist to allow those movies because of women/minorities. How does that work? "I'm not going to allow women/minorities in film while I'm filming women/minorities!"
2. Feige didn't do anything with Inhumans as far as I know
3. AoS isn't canon, IMO, because of Feige's feud with Perlmutter and that would involve acknowledging that Perlmutter did produce shows with women/minorities.

Caciulacdlac2025-10-16 02:30

Perlmutter wasn't in charge with Agents of SHIELD, and he didn't produce any show. He was just a guy who was saying "you can do that", "you can't do this" for both movies and tv. We have evidence that he refused to greenlight female-led movies and Black Panther until Bob Iger intervened in 2014.

SeekerVash2025-10-16 03:15

May I see this evidence?

Caciulacdlac2025-10-16 03:16

[https://bleedingcool.com/comics/when-disney-ordered-ike-perlmutter-to-stop-blocking-black-panther-and-captain-marvel-movies/](https://bleedingcool.com/comics/when-disney-ordered-ike-perlmutter-to-stop-blocking-black-panther-and-captain-marvel-movies/)

SeekerVash2025-10-16 03:19

That's interesting.

So the claim is that he blocked movies based on prejudice, but the linked article states he was operating on historical performance data and not prejudice correct?

Caciulacdlac2025-10-16 03:29

That's still a prejudice. Just because those female-led movies flopped, it doesn't mean that the next one will also do. Believing so and refusing to greenlight a movie based on this is prejudice.

It's like a company inviting 7 Asians who applied for a job to take an interview, and all of them fail the interview. And then that company decides to no longer invite Asians to an interview, because the past data shows that all Asians fail. Would the company not be prejudiced against Asians in this case?

Also, what's the excuse for Black Panther? There had been successful black-led superhero movies in the past.

SeekerVash2025-10-16 03:51

Help me to understand then.

If I say historical data shows that men don't go to romance movies and a romance movie targeted at men is likely to fail, is that prejudice?

If I say that the historical data shows that Chinese don't watch movies about ghosts and a ghost story movie targeting the Chinese is likely to fail, am I prejudiced?

I do agree with you that past performance doesn't guarantee future performance.

I'm struggling with the assertion that quoting historical data means you hate people though.

Also note, your question about BP is fair, and I don't have an answer to that.

Caciulacdlac2025-10-16 04:01

It's a prejudice if you don't take multiple factors in the account.

Those Asians failed the interview. Was it because they were Asians or because they were not good/prepared?

Data shows that men don't go to romance movies. But do those romance movies tried to appeal to the male audience in a way? If we do that, will it have the same fate?

Data shows that female-led superhero movies are flopping. But is it because they were female-led, or because they were terrible? The fact that he reached the conclusion that they were female-led when it was obvious that it was the other thing means that he was prejudiced.

Riley__642025-10-16 03:41

The historical data was showing that black/female led stories on average made less money.

The reason these movies on average have made less is due to prejudices that women and black people couldn’t be leading stars so Hollywood execs would either try and not get these movies made or just not put as much faith into them.

SeekerVash2025-10-16 03:53

I am not denying that statement, that's a fairly well documented truth.

WIN_WITH_VOLUME2025-10-16 02:55

With regard to your first question, yes the evidence of his prejudice came out with the Sony email leaks. He lost control over Marvel Studios in 2015 so any MCU project after that wasn’t him. He lost control of TV in 2019 so any television project after that wasn’t him either.

>When Terrence Howard wanted a raise for the role of Rhodey in the Iron Man franchise, Ike Perlmutter fired him and hired Don Cheadle, allegedly telling a Disney exec that no one would notice because Black people “look the same.”

>He told Sony head Michael Lynton that female led superhero movies would all fail.

pje11282025-10-16 03:42

Feige had an Inhumans movie planned at one point, but Marvel TV ended up making it a TV show instead, so they took the movie off the slate.

As for AoS' canon, it was made by the same Marvel TV studio that made the Netflix show, all of which have been acknowledged as official canon. If AoS is decanonized, it won't be because of the creative team, but just because the story they want to tell would conflict with the events of the show.

GarySoneji2025-10-16 03:05

Everyone forgets about, or ignores entirely, that Ant-Man was announced in 2006, and a Nick Fury movie at SDCC.

Electronic_Reality712025-10-16 03:36

The AoS situation is entirely due to Coulson in my opinion.

Feige probably adores the Marvel Studios Coulson. Not overly capable or formidable but a trustworthy agent with the ability to run operations and establish friendships with Avengers. Not a lot of clearly outlined traits, more so defined by his relationship with Fury and the Avengers.

What he probably doesn’t care for is Agents of SHIELD Coulson. The extremely competent and resourceful operative who is seen by Fury to be indispensable, to the point where he considers him an Avenger. The agent turned director who forms much deeper bonds yet crosses moral lines at times and allows personal biases to impede his judgement. This Coulson is empathetic but ruthless, tactical but emotional, fair but strict.

If I were in charge, I’d undoubtedly prefer the latter version of the character. I also just like AoS in general. But I very much doubt Feige sees it that way.

miikro2025-10-16 06:45

I'd say moreso than Coulson is the big feud with Perlmutter over the Inhumans. He wanted to push the Inhumans in as mutant replacements to invalidate the X-Men and hurt Fox so badly that he didn't care what stories he derailed to do it, and his main vehicle for this was AoS.

Also worth mentioning, Perlmutter kept insisting no one would watch a Black Widow or Captain Marvel movie, and also didn't want to make Black Panther and tried to get the movie cancelled.

So Feige straight-up threated to quit because this old bigoted asshat was ruining his ideas, and had to quarantine AoS into the multiverse just to stop Ike and control the damage he'd already done to the canon.

Sargento_Porciuncula2025-10-16 07:56

well, the inhumans plot did work for AoS. it was just terrible on its own

miikro2025-10-16 07:58

I enjoyed a lot of the Inhumans stuff on AOS, but yeah it... Didn't make any sense at all in the larger setting of the MCU.

Theyletfly822025-10-16 16:53

It's also heavily suspected that Chloe Bennett isn't liked by MCU higher ups cause of some stuff she said in the past. So no Daisy no crossover really.

miikro2025-10-16 18:18

That wouldn't shock me. She was *very* outspoken about racism in Hollywood directed at Asian talents... But was saying these things while publicly dating Logan Paul, who had just done a huge racism in Japan.

I think it affected her career a lot, not just with Marvel.

Huge-Income33132025-10-17 05:41

Fun fact about Logan's Japan incident, the dead body was fake

What makes Logan truly evil is:

1) Japanese police said the dead body was fake & the incident was a staged prank

2) YouTube knew it was fake, manually put the video on trending & punished people who criticized Logan

3) Logan hired Kim Kardashian's Fame strategist Sheeraz Hasan who is known for faking controversies to make people famous from hate, the Japan incident was a staged Hollywood publicity stunt designed to make Logan super famous.

4) Sheeraz owns LA paparazzi which is why Logan was posing for paparazzi, appearing on the news & doing preplanned paparazzi interviews during the incident. They were aggressively pushing his name & controversy to the entire world

5) Anybody who exposed the Japan incident as fake had their channels striked & videos removed for up to 5 years after the incident, including tiny channels with small followings

6) At the time of Logan's Japan incident, YouTube released their own YouTube Originals show called "Do You Want To See a Dead Body?".. You can Google this right now, I'm not making this up.

7) Both KSI & Logan were spotted in Dubai meeting boxing promoters BEFORE Logan even went to Japan. Logan's 'downfall' into his lucrative boxing 'redemption' pivot was preplanned. They planned to make Logan the villian to sell more boxing tickets. YouTube streamed & trended this event on their platform.

Source: https://youtu.be/EQfEbFgzX90?si=ukjsnmhPNwmqH-xx

Edboy7962025-10-16 03:44

I'll always wonder what Ant Man would have been like with the original film maker/vision

AnthropomorphicBook2025-10-16 13:24

Probably very similar, but with a dead Janet. I’m not positive, but I have always had a suspicion that Wright’s big disagreement with the studio was that he wanted Janet to be really killed.

But so much of Ant-Man feels like an Edgar Wright movie, I’ve always wondered what the big difference was.

TMP_Film_Guy2025-10-16 19:59

I always heard that he wanted Yellowjacket to turn out to be Hank Pym and that Marvel didn’t want that character to be a villain.

AnthropomorphicBook2025-10-19 06:30

I could see how they might not like that, but also…. It totally could’ve worked. I just hope that one day someone will talk about the differences

Markus28222025-10-16 11:51

AOS was always canon, there’s numerous sources for this like their Appendix to the Marvel Handbooks, Fury’s Bio on Marvels website, references in tie in books like The Wakanda Files, Tie in Comics, Feige saying it’s canon etc.

NepheliLouxWarrior2025-10-17 03:43

Yep this is true. The Captain Marvel film was initially a phase 2.5 film (between Age of Ultron and Civil War) along with a ton of other stuff that got pushed back, canceled etc.

impossiblequakewitch2025-10-17 14:09

Well to most AoS fans it is canon

PartyPoison982025-10-16 07:36

There wasn't a plan. I'd advise watching the "It was a shit show" series about the MCU on YouTube. It was crazy how much was made up on the fly or went wrong, yet it came out nearly perfectly.

jk-9k2025-10-19 08:18

I think that's actually more to the point. They didn't have a plan but things went really well for them. They were lucky, but they adapted and made their luck. And it all worked out well.

Yet people claim the MCU turned to shit because they didn't have a plan and compare it to the Infinity saga where they claimed they did.

Obviously the truth is the opposite. There's always been a plan for the multiverse saga but they've had really bad luck and are forced to adapt and pivot - but with less flexibility as they have a plan to stick to. The apparent changes aren't due to lack of a plan but simply the external issues that have affected things.

sophicpharaoh2025-10-16 19:21

“Went to plan” it wasn’t as planned out as you think.

j1h152332025-10-16 20:11

I’m well aware of that. It still worked out though. They tied everything together, all of the actors behaved, no one passed away. Did they have a set ten year plan in 2008…nope but they still had a million things go right.

sophicpharaoh2025-10-16 23:32

True.

FatBoyWithTheChain2025-10-16 01:48

Idk why but it still doesn’t feel like Endgame was that long ago. I have to constantly tell my brain that it was almost 7 years ago

Cultural_Comfort58942025-10-16 01:49

I was on Disney+ today looking for something to watch.

They had The Infinity Saga in order and The Multiverse Saga in order.

I don’t know what TF people are complaining about

The MCU is very very impressive

I’ll take what they’re selling whenever I can get it.
They know what they are doing.

Excelsior

BaconKnight2025-10-16 01:51

OP, you made a well researched post and you are factually right.

But no one cares.

It’s kinda telling that even in here, a place that should be a very positive sub, this is met with largely, “Ok.” Like we know they got dealt a bad hand, it still doesn’t change the fact we got subpar stuff for a while now and the stuff that is okay isn’t hitting with the general audience.

Shattered_Sans2025-10-16 01:55

I get that there was always a plan, but I think ultimately the plan *was* the problem. Sure, it's not directionless, but the direction they decided on was really flawed. The lack of sequels for so many of the new characters they set up robbed us of an opportunity for audiences to really get attached to those characters, and get to know them like we knew the Infinity Saga characters, and it robbed those characters of the opportunity to have multi-film/season-long character and narrative arcs before the big finale of the saga, which means it's gonna be basically impossible for Secret Wars to replicate any of the big impactful or hype moments of Endgame, or have it's own equivalents. Those moments worked because of what we as am audience had seen these characters go through.

Beyond that, having no Avengers films before Kang Dynasty/Doomsday made the whole cinematic universe feel more disconnected, because the Avengers films *were* the connective tissue of the MCU's overarching narrative. Big events with repercussions that were felt in other projects. The Multiverse Saga didn't have any such event films, which, in addition to being a problem for the reasons I just stated, kinda made the phases feel arbitrary. They didn't have a beginning, middle, and end like phases 1-3 each did, they were just a very long middle with no beginning or end.

I say this as someone who still loves the MCU, and has enjoyed almost every project they've put out since Endgame (with Black Widow and Secret Invasion being the only exceptions). We can't just pretend that the MCU is immune to criticism because there *was* a plan, even though that plan sucked ass.

FictionFantom2025-10-16 02:25

But let's compare what this "ideal timeline" would have been like compared to Phase One, which for the exception of Iron Man 2 had one movie each for the Avengers over four years. I don't think it's really that big of a deal for a five-year plan with a slightly bigger roster to only have plans for one movie for each core Avenger; especially taking in supplementary Disney+ content into account.

Shattered_Sans2025-10-16 02:30

Ok, but you can't compare an ideal version of *the entire Multiverse Saga*, to just phase 1 of the Infinity Saga. That's not a reasonable comparison just because there were no Avengers movies in phases 4 and 5. Especially when one of my points is that there *should've been* Avengers movies, or just any kind of big event films, in phases 4 and 5.

eagc72025-10-16 07:33

Yeah i think the problem in general is that they wanted to stick to true slate they gave us and not change anything (aside of moving some projects around), instead of giving themselves the room to shift some things to continue certain stories. (Aside of Spider-Man considering they ain't calling the shots here in terms of when that comes out)

Unlike say James Gunn, while he did announced a bunch of projects, he never said this is hard solid order of release and still gave himself the room to add a Superman sequel and Clayface. Like the only time Marvel had to change their entire slate to add a sequel was with Ant-Man 2 for Phase 3, but everything else they announced the sequels before doing a new phase reveal.

N8CCRG2025-10-16 14:47

I agree the lack of sequels was a problem. And in the same vein the lack of characters working across projects. Iron Man had three movies and two Avengers movies and major appearances in Winter Soldier and Spider-Man (and a cameo in TIH, but that's not really significant).

In this saga the character with the most major appearances is Yelena with Black Widow, Hawkeye (not even a movie, but a limited streaming series) and then Thunderbolts*. Every other major character has ad at most two major appearances, and many have had one or even none.

I'd nitpick and say it didn't need Avengers films specifically, but team-ups in general; like Thunderbolts* should've been at the end of Phase 4, and then Thunderbolts* vs Avengers or whatever at the end of Phase 5.

Banana_man_-2025-10-16 17:43

It’s definitely bad planning as well to have the Fantastic Four’s debut film be the second last movie before the the teamup against Doom, not to mention Doom wasn’t even in Fantastic Four

Shattered_Sans2025-10-16 17:58

Tbf, >!he was in it, but only very briefly, in a post-credits scene!< but yeah, I agree. I think the F4 should've debuted in phase 4, and should've had at least one sequel before Doomsday.

wildeebelmondo2025-10-16 01:59

It also needs to be added that Captain Marvel (the character) did not go over well with the general audience. Also, the death of Chadwick. Both of those characters were originally suppose to be the pillars of the Multiverse Saga in the same way Cap and Iron Man were for the Infinity Saga.

crispy_attic2025-10-16 02:55

Not recasting T’Challa was a mistake. It should be clear to everyone by now. Every time they recast another character it looks worse.

medyas12025-10-16 05:57

it's just a matter of time elapsed

recast too soon = fans in uproar over "disrespect"

recast after an "appropriate" period of grieving and moving on = only a few hardcore holdouts will be vocal against it

eagc72025-10-16 07:27

Yeah what i would've done if i were in Feige's/Coogler's shoes, is to delay Black Panther by a year or 2 to give us some time to process what happened and to grieve, then okay enough time passed lets see if we can continue with a new actor

Ranos1312025-10-16 03:26

The main character of the 9th highest grossing domestic and 11th highest grossing total MCU movie didn’t go over well with the general audience? Let me guess, “But the rotten tomatoes audience score…” Yeah last I heard, that was misogynists rating it before it even released.

UserWithno-Name2025-10-16 04:16

Look chuds exist but he’s not wrong. My friend and I did not enjoy the movie much and we aren’t woman bashing like that and I literally hear little to no one talk about it / her the way they do even rocket raccoon. She’s never been all that popular, they want her to be the marvel Wonder Woman or something but she just does not resonate with people like that.

eaguayo2025-10-16 04:57

One thing I don't like is that she has no character development. Look at Thor who's another OP character. He actually does change his character in the first movie and not just getting his powers back. He's like Captain Marvel in being cocky and thinking no one is stronger than him/her. He's more humble despite being stronger too. Captain Marvel just stays the same. Even Wonder Woman in her movie had character development.

UserWithno-Name2025-10-16 05:30

Eh Wonder Woman could have done with a little more and ares final fight was still not so great. Marvel it’s just they should have leaned more into some of the 90’s stuff than they did instead of cheap member berry version and I think it should have shown how she was normal and / or plenty confident and really didn’t want to be alien or powered up, maybe like invincible or something struggling with being part alien or alien powered, but in a better way. And the kree / marvel guy or whatever idk that “villain” needed to be better. We went in thinking it would be this amazing wind up before endgame and it wasn’t. If they reworked some of that, and instead of the crap we got and figured out some way to make alien threat/ thanos tie in better to endgame, I think that first would be better. I enjoyed marvels as a one off girls adventure but it also had a lot of problems and I only streamed it and the villain and motivation kind of sucked too. At least the three felt more fun together but they have got to figure out how to write her and the others around her better, only miss marvel (kamala) has felt like anyone enjoyable or not just a set dressing the way they make Monica feel. I do agree that her and Thor are similarly powerful but they make Thor more likable in even his worst movie. We also were super disappointed with Thor 4 which was worse for my buddy cause he loved 3 so much he went to it a second time to join me on my first watch because I’d been away before we watched it. But we at least enjoyed thors humor and fight scenes mostly, as well as the good stuff of lady Thor here and there when she got to fight. I also found the gods thing funny if a bit childish though I’d have rathered a war going on instead of funny infighting with said gods.

AmaterasuWolf212025-10-16 04:31

She's just not popular, there's an increase in apathy towards her, it's not simply grifters

wildeebelmondo2025-10-16 05:19

The misogynists have nothing to do with what I’m talking about. For instance, look at how much more likable Yelena is. The only reason the Captain Marvel movie grossed as much as it did was because it was sandwiched between Infinity War and Endgame. If it came out any other time it would’ve made half as much money.

Ranos1312025-10-16 06:03

Antman and the Wasp was also sandwiched between Infinity War and Endgame and only made 50-55% of what Captain Marvel made. So it was farm more than just where it fell in the lineup.

Adept-Story-83692025-10-16 14:34

Captain marvel was directly teased in infinity wars credit scene pretty much setting her up to have a role in endgame. Antman didn't have that at all. It makes sense that her film would make more because of that. People naturally would want to know how her character connects to endgame. Captain Marvel certainly didn't make all that money because it was a quality film worth seeing, it definitely was because of Infinity war and Endgame. If Ant Man had the same kind of set up that film may have done more too.

wildeebelmondo2025-10-16 14:43

Actually, you’re missing a very important part. Not only was it Captain Marvel’s debut film, but she was directly tied into what was happening with Infinity War/Endgame. People saw her movie in droves because of that reason. Everybody already knew who Ant-Man was.

It would be like if after Doomsday they release a debut character film before Secret Wars. Everyone would go see that character’s debut film no matter who it was.

Heisenburgo2025-10-16 07:38

How about **the main character of the biggest box office flop of ALL TIME?** We are not in 2020 anymore, and The Marvels was, after all, a bigger disaster than even Disney's John Carter movie. It's clear now that there was hype for the character at the start ESPECIALLY since she had the preceding movie to Endgame, but it's gone now. Reduced to ashes. And it's not the fault of the ch*ds or the inc*ls or whatever, otherwise The Marvels wouldn't have incurred a $237 million dollar loss (!) for Disney... you don't flop on that level from the deplorables alone...

Ranos1312025-10-16 13:53

Tha movie suffered, in part, from the actors strike and a bad marketing campaign. It was released only a few weeks after the actors strike ended so the actors hadn’t been out on the usual media tours. On top of that, Marvel did even do a lot of the usual marketing the Marvel films get. Add in the problems of the movie itself which are related to the villain and story and the issue isn’t the main character at all.

snacksandsoda2025-10-16 02:00

They literally are just winging it according to every insider look at how these movies are and always have been made

epic_reddit_dude2025-10-16 02:07

Yeah it’s annoying. They announced secret wars three years ago already and we’re STILL two whole god damn years away from it, actually unbelievable. Just fucking get on with it. We don’t live forever feige, and neither do the actors, you don’t have all century to screw around. Get this done and do the soft reboot already so we can finally get on with our lives.

Has been starting to feel like mcu purgatory lately

Capital_Gate67182025-10-16 02:08

Don’t forget Chadwick Boseman’s death. That was a huge blow to the MCU’s plans

OrcaHawk12025-10-16 12:30

Yep, huge. I’m still bummed about it.

TMP_Film_Guy2025-10-16 20:02

It’s interesting to note that a lot of people (myself included) thought that him, Cumberbatch, and Larson were going to be the new big three of the MCU. While his death derailed his character, the strange lack of use of the other two suggest he might not have gotten much more play if he was alive.

GeetaJonsdottir2025-10-20 01:17

They hung a giant lampshade on this in "Endgame"... it's no accident that the Gauntlet specifically gets passed to Black Panther -> Spider-Man -> Captain Marvel. Literal handoff of the franchise to what were meant to be the tentpoles of the next phase.

TMP_Film_Guy2025-10-20 01:32

Marvel’s constant need to put a character they don’t technically own (Spidey) as the main guy both makes sense and is so fascinating. He literally can’t cross over outside of his own movies and big team ups!

NepheliLouxWarrior2025-10-17 03:44

Marvel was in an impossible situation with that one but in hindsight I think time has shown that they should have just recasted him.

jk-9k2025-10-19 08:25

What do you think of a killmonger variant whose father was never murdered being the blank panther from another universe who continues in the MCU post secret wars?

Ranos1312025-10-16 02:08

The only excusable gaps are Covid and the writer’s strike. The rest are poor planning and sheer stupidity.

Gunn’a firing was a stupid move. That wasn’t an unforeseen event, that was an aimless choice that led to some desperation.

They didn’t add content to fill space. They shifted things around and they actually cut content. There were supposed to be more TV shows and movies in 2023-2025. They didn’t think about the over saturation that they caused by having too many entires within such a short timeframe.

Poor choices in their plan are the biggest issue. The biggest reason the Multiverse Saga feels aimless is because of the drastic shift from their Infinity Saga plan.

From the start, they planned on The Avengers. We all saw the post credit scene of Ironman making that clear. We had something to look forward to and all five of the earliest movies tied into The Avengers movie. Then they continued to tie off Phases 2 and 3 with Avengers movies. It made each phase feel connected and the post credits scenes helped link them all together. We only had to wait a few movies and maybe until the next phase to see that post credit scene pay off.

Then we get Phase 4. No Avengers movie. The only post credit scenes that paid off within the Phase were WandaVision and kind of Black Widow. We don’t even get post credit scenes in most of the TV shows so nothing really tying them to others.

Phase 5 gave us a few more links to post credit scenes from Phase 4 but most are still left hanging. Black Widow is still the only Phase 4 movie that has had its credit scene pay off. The others are all strings left dangling. Hawkeye barely ties in with The Marvels credit scene, Moon Knight and Werewolf by Night still feel completely disconnected from everything else and She-Hulk is still swinging in the wind.

Them choosing to not recast Kang and making the switch to Doom as the next Avengers villain feels like a lot of what happened before doesn’t matter. Plus in the Infinity Saga, every time we saw an Infinity Stone we knew it was building to Thanos trying to wipe out half of all life. The different universes we’ve seen in the Multiverse Saga just don’t give that same feeling because there’s been no hint of the multiversal war outside of Loki and Quantumania.

It feels aimless because things aren’t connected like they were in the Infinity Saga. It feels like there’s no story because almost nothing was built up and now that’s been thrown in the trash. It feels desperate because they have made so many changes, most of which had nothing to do with a Covid or the writers strike.

The Gunn firing was Marvel’s fault. They could have just not fired him.

Not recasting Majors was Marvel’s choice. Plenty of other actors to fill the role and an easy explanation that Loki doing what he did at the end of Season 2 changed something somehow. They have recast numerous other roles. They could have done the same here.

Blade’s development hell is Marvel’s choice. It shouldn’t be that hard to write a script with all of the material available. They haven’t had the same issue with any other entry. Why this one?

While it was supposed to only take half of the time to come out, it was always going to have around 1.5-2 times the entries. It isn’t about the time, it’s about the coordination and execution.

The_True_Y2025-10-16 02:22

The Gunn firing was because some right winger responded to a Disney board member about the firing of Roseanne Barr and Gunn's old tweets, Disney under Chapek forced Marvel to pump 4 feature films and 5 Disney Plus series A YEAR, Blade has been stuck in development hell because ALI is the only reason a Blade movie is happening, HE went to Marvel and said "make me Blade" no story, no writer, no director, just an actor asking to star in a movie, then they gave ALI control on the director and writers and then when he didn't like where the people HE hired were going he fired them, then he hired new people and then 3 weeks before shooting was supposed to begin He demanded more rewrites.

Ranos1312025-10-16 02:24

Okay and? Everything you just said was Disney’s fault. What point are you trying to make?

The_True_Y2025-10-16 03:23

That everything is Disney's fault, like how all of the Infinity Saga's problems were caused by Perlmutter and the creative committee.

Ranos1312025-10-16 03:36

Yeah that cleared everything up.

Are you trying to say that everything is Disney’s fault since Perlmutter did cause a lot of issues, that it’s only partly Disney’s fault since Perlmutter wasn’t around for the last part of the Infinity Saga or that it isn’t Disney’s fault since none of what Perlmutter did actually had a major impact on how successful the Infinity Saga is?

You really need to work on your rhetoric skills because you can’t even get your basic ideas across clearly, let alone back them up.

crispy_attic2025-10-16 03:03

The way they have handled Kang, Blade, T’Challa, and War Machine is so frustrating.

Waffle_of-Principle2025-10-16 16:41

Interesting that all these actors have a certain trait in common...

Poku1152025-10-16 19:13

They are not women.

(Yeah yeah sexist comment but how the hell does ironheart have a show and not rhodey?

Elderberry-West2025-10-16 13:05

I just watched a short video showing either 21 or 27 "hanging" scenes right now in the mcu. At the same time i keep seeing people say "just give them time to ruminate they dont need to pay off the next movie". I dont know my point. But that does seem like a lot of "anticipation" content!!

Savitar1232025-10-17 20:48

>The only excusable gaps are Covid and the writer’s strike. The rest are poor planning and sheer stupidity.

Funny how you say this just for it to be clear you don't what you're talking about that's just amazing.

>Gunn’a firing was a stupid move. That wasn’t an unforeseen event, that was an aimless choice that led to some desperation.

Marvel didn't fire Gunn that was Alan Horn, AKA a Disney hire up.

Ragnarok_6192025-10-16 02:18

Covid was a damper in MCU's plan, as was not establishing the next saga around a core group. One was clearly out of Marvel's hand, but the other (good character writing) was well within their realm, which they screwed.

We now have more excuses for MCU's failures than solutions, and that's a concerning route.

I still commend the people here for not being blind, and are calling out the shoddy products for what they are

FX1142025-10-16 02:23

>Marvel isn't just winging it, making it up as they go along. What we've been seeing play out is an elaborate, committee-drawn plan getting torn up by unforeseen circumstances and getting stitched back together again and again.

How is that *not* winging it?

TheCIAiscomingforyou2025-10-16 02:30

Interesting point of view... one comment I will say - in response to "Whatever story they have in mind for *Avengers: Secret Wars*, it was *never* going to get a ten-year build like *Infinity War* and *Endgame*." I agree it wouldn't have had 10 years, but due to the proliferation of content it wold have had as many projects (movies and tv shows) to build up the storyline.

To mirror a point made below, the Infinity Saga will be one of those amazing lightning in a bottle moments, and I feel lucky to have been here when it happened.

MentalWolverine82025-10-16 02:55

I think we're heavily underestimating the Bob Chapek aspect of it. There was a mandate given by him to produce as much content as possible to flood Disney+ with shows and that really stretched Kevin Feige thin. Quality went down heavily and the direction of the MCU so to speak became vague.

Heisenburgo2025-10-16 07:41

>Bob Chapek

Two words: Scape. Goat.

Reminder that "Igor" Iger was the one who spearheaded the D-Plus content mandates, using Cheapskate Chapek as the convenient fall guy while he remained on the company's board.

Other issues with Disney at the time, such as firing and mistreating Johhansen along with the nonsense he pulled at the parks, were all definitely caused by Bob 2, but the sudden push for a million Marvel/SW shows of middling quality? That's all on Bob 1, baby.

BambooSound2025-10-16 10:08

Chapek didn't force Feige to go this long between Avengers movies.

Chapek didn't force Feige to not allow the writing teams of WandaVision and DS2 to communicate.

Chapek didn't force Feige to not allow the writing teams of Secret Invasion and The Marvels to communicate.

[If] Chapek just wanted Disney+ content, Feige could have provided that multiple seasons of content from a handful of shows, rather than 15 effective origin stories.

ThePhenom2k252025-10-16 03:05

On the next one..

santa99912025-10-16 03:06

I’m willing to give the quality a pass because of this, and the amount that came out at once.

But the saga still seems really poorly structured to me. Did they cancel anything besides blade? Was more going to come out?

One movie per character, at most 2 appearances per character, nothing to connect them until we get to doomsday (what would have been Kang dynasty).

All that still happens in a more spaced out saga.

Maybe the buildup to Kang helps the buildup to secret wars, but I still think we are missing out on too much buildup regardless of all this.

eagc72025-10-16 07:21

The only other announced project that was a complete chaos is Armor Wars, though should be noted that Marvel neither confirmed that either project is 100% dead.......yet (There is also Shang-Chi 2, though the slow process seems more due to wanting the director of the film finish his other MCU projects before returning to Shang)

Now Marvel did used to have extra dates for some pre-Secret Wars movies, but they never said what they were gonna be, but those dates got purged as result of their shift on focusing on quality over quantity and making sure they do less.

havewelost63882025-10-16 03:33

You forgot about Chadwick Boseman dying.

Heisenburgo2025-10-16 07:42

Still can't believe the King himself is gone, it was such a shocking and sudden death in general

Edboy7962025-10-16 03:40

Had this played out as if covid never happened, would Guardians 3 have turned out as good as it did since he was brought back to finish the trilogy post covid?

FictionFantom2025-10-16 03:49

Well, he was rehired *before* COVID-19.

Edboy7962025-10-16 03:50

Ah okay, my bad!

eagc72025-10-17 02:33

Well James Gunn did said that the script in the final cut is pretty much the same script he wrote before the firing, so it would've still been good.

If anything the big question is how they would've adressed Thor, since James said even if GOTG had released first, he would've not added Thor regardless.

DavidEDavid222025-10-16 04:40

Don’t think writing shitty one liners and teen drama was a symptom of Covid

DowntownJulieBrown12025-10-16 06:48

This reads like some agent-fed talking point bs to me

Fishyblue112025-10-16 07:09

The elaborate committee drawn plan is the problem

Every single marvel movie and marvel direction is some part of this elaborate tapestry being woven by a board room of executives and focus groups, and that tapestry in time has become a net that Marvel cannot escape.

We need to start seeing more creator focused and led projects, that don't cling and adhere to some gigantic elaborate plan, and is simply the vision of creators that can give more variety and more individuality to marvel projects.

FictionFantom2025-10-16 12:37

[deleted]

Fishyblue112025-10-16 12:51

Isn't the lesson we took from the very beginning of this:

Build your individual stories first, and then bring them together into a long term story afterwards, rather than what DC did in the early days, where they focused so much on bringing them together in a long term payoff right from the get go instead of building them up individually first?

Now marvel is the one falling victim to being a slave of the long term story and the individual stories are only there to service the long term pay off. DC is the one that's now giving people individual stories that are the work of its own creators, which is why their individual works have now been the more highly regarded ones as of late

Fishyblue112025-10-16 13:07

The star wars franchise has produced some very good media when allowed to stray from the core focus of the series: star wars the clone wars, the mandalorian, andor; they've put out stuff that literally shows all the wild ways star wars can go in Star Wars Visions.

The thing these things have in common is they're not just rehashes of what we've seen before from star wars, which is where the mainstream movies have fallen flat. The movies have been so afraid to go away from Luke and Leia and Darth Vader and palpatine, while the TV media has literally gone all over the place and is all the better for it.

Star wars would be good if they didn't want a long term story or payoff, and instead focused on showing us how many more stories there are in the star wars universe

PartyPoison982025-10-16 07:38

Anyone else realise this post was blatantly written by ChatGPT?

FictionFantom2025-10-16 12:36

Burden of proof is on you. What makes you think it’s “blatantly” chat GPT? Because it’s competently written?

Spacegirllll62025-10-16 08:11

There’s just no buildup. The fact that Doom’s first appearance is gonna be in the two avengers movie is fucked up. The fact that Fantastic 4 JUST came out is fucked up as well because honestly now the conversation is never gonna be about Doom and Richards.

There is no buildup to Doom and Richards and I think that’s a damn shame. The conversation so far regarding Doom has solely been about RDJ and how it would impact Spider-Man or Rhodey etc, not about Doom as a character or his relationships.

Mizerous2025-10-16 14:00

Because its a last minute pivot no time to build a Reed and Doom sadly

JustTightShirts2025-10-16 09:53

There's a book conveniently called MCU that really goes in depth on all this stuff. Definitely worth a read for any fan or even anyone mildly curious

BambooSound2025-10-16 09:59

Still doesn't explain why they had things like WandaVision-MoM or Secret Invasion-The Marvels have nothing to do with each other.

Unforseen circumstances aside I don't believe they ever really had a true narrative arc in mind. Feige just hired a bunch of different people to make a bunch of different things that he hoped he'd be able to stitch together using reshoots and post-production.

FictionFantom2025-10-16 12:34

WandaVision and Doctor Strange 2 are DIRECTLY related to each other.

Markus28222025-10-16 11:57

I think had the plan gone as planned, the plan was still fundamentally wrong. If you look at the structure of previous phases there’s 2 clear huge missing things:

1. Sequels. We got hardly any of them, and arguably none of them are for new characters introduced this phase.

2. No Avengers team ups or even minor team ups ala Winter Soldier until the very end. Even putting Thunderbolts earlier doesn’t really fix that.

(Also I find it kind of hilarious that people still believe the Quantity over Quality issue when, A. The stuff releasing in Phase 4 when they were making more was widely regarded as pretty good, it’s only when they slowed down that quality dropped hard. And B. 2018, had the most mcu projects released (along with 2017) by a mile, and this is the year with Infinity War, Black Panther and Daredevil Season 3)

abellapa2025-10-16 12:53

The X-Men wouldnt be coming right away regardless

They got the rights in 2019

And until this year they couldnt reboot the charcaters,they had to use The fox actors

No to mention they had a lot of stuff planned regardless and they wouldnt detail everything just to shoehorn The X-Men

FictionFantom2025-10-16 15:09

Even if that contract *rumor* was true, 2025 (this year) would be following up this saga. So yeah, it would be coming out right away afterwards.

need_of_sim2025-10-16 14:22

It's seems so much faster than the infinity saga but supposed to make more money

We haven't even seen Dr.Doom as a villain yet nor have any team building movies

Jarita122025-10-16 14:51

Everything up to the Endgame was a pure miracle and I think is unrepeated. Something they may actually teach at film schools in following decades. No hurdles, very little recastings, and even the worst projects were still pretty decent.

I like the Multiversal saga, however not everything worked for me (I think Thor movie was the worst of ALL projects, probably only Secret Invasion is lower)

Maybe after the soft restart after Secret Wars, they will get back on track

Affectionate-Bus9272025-10-16 15:52

Sad they fired Jonathan Majors

also you forgot the return of Bob Iger and his business policy

MiCK_GaSM2025-10-16 16:55

> The Multiverse Saga was supposed to be half as long as the Infinity Saga.

Duh. A board of investors (greedy humans) said make the money you made before in half as much time. That is capitalism, and what grinds everything to dust, including people, until there's no more money to be made.

WorthSong2025-10-16 17:42

I agree that most people don't recognize everything that happened to the world (and that was a lot) as crucial to Multiverse Saga's failure.

COVID, CGI crunch, actors and writers strikes, Major's legal problems.

Atrocities like Thor or Ant-Man were directly linked to CGI crunch (COVID hasted every major release) and strikes.

Public never returned to theaters after COVID and all that records set before aren't just reachable as before

In retrospect we never get remotely near to the original multiverse plan

Poku1152025-10-16 19:11

Buddy feige himself said they were already pivoting to doom before quantumania came out.

They are clearly winging it and you all are still licking their boots

Chhlop2025-10-16 19:42

There are just excuses. The bottom line is Feige is not a good producer. The planets aligned for the Infinity Saga but it wasn't some grand vision by Feige. They originally were just focused on each movie, hoping each would be successful enough to be able to make the next one and the cinematic universe just happened.

Now that he's trying to build a cinematic universe, it's failing because he doesn't know what he's doing.

FireflyArc2025-10-16 21:42

I just hope they don't pivot too much into "these characters are now like the comics. Read the comics to follow the adventures of what they did between movies" type stuff. I *liked* the changes characters got because of the movie adaptation. Tony got a wife in pepper and that's sweet.

teshh2025-10-16 22:52

You say they're not adding content for contents sake, but that's exactly what they're doing with the TV shows. Those TV shows are the only thing keeping Disney plus afloat.

While they killed any cinematic momentum they had this and next year by not having any additional movies for the new avengers.

Tieger662025-10-16 23:06

to me, the problem is that 'the infinity saga' was basically 'the iron man saga, with a few bits where the whole avengers are there' - and that was fine, there was a single plotline to follow through, with a few side bits added on that fed into the teamups for iron man.

but there's no equivalent now. we've just got a bunch of seperate stories - which i enjoy, and actually as individual projects i think most of them are fine - but there's no cohesive line through it all. I don't even know who are likely to be 'The Avengers' for Doomsday.

Smoking-Posing2025-10-16 23:20

I don't really see how any of that would've made this saga any less lackluster TBH

Carouselcolours2025-10-16 23:39

Thank you for putting this into words. Covid resulted in projects getting shuffled (Multiverse of Madness and No Way Home are the two main two I can think of, and both projects suffered as a result.)

Bob Iger has also had a history of putting his hands where they shouldn’t be at Marvel, and that also happened here. Multiverse Saga started during the Disney+ launch, and Disney execs were hungry to put content on there. They didn’t care if the content was good, or if it made sense to Marvel’s overall story telling, they just wanted to fatten the pig. And doing that caused real damage to the storytelling effort.

Folks forget about how much damage the strikes also did. The Marvels got no promotion as a result, which is a shame. Arguably, The Marvels is one of the most important films going into Doomsday because of the fact they are draining resources from (what we find out to be) another universe, and Monica Rambeau ends up stuck with the X-Men. I can’t think of another post-credit lead in for phases 4, 5, and 6 that is as important as that one, excluding the 2025 releases.

That said, we’re starting to be able to see the updated end point. I think we can all update our Multiverse Saga watchlists to filter out some (most) of the excess projects that in the end won’t touch the plot very much.

MrDoom4e52025-10-18 19:44

So Feige was planning to bring back RDJ as Doom while the movies were called Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars? And why wasn't that announced until July of last year? 6 months after Majors was officially convicted?

StanyeEast2025-10-20 05:50

I just can't take either superhero universe seriously anymore...not until they cast Norman Reedus, Tom Pelphrey, Andrew Lincoln, Shaq. Kate Beckinsale and Chloe Grace Moretz in prominent roles and cast someone besides Channing Tatum in the role of Gambit...I'm sorry, but it's otherwise just not possible for me at this point in time lol

ThePolymath112025-10-20 21:20

The worst thing they did in my opinion, is letting Jonathan Majors go! He is one of the best actors to ever be on MCU. He Who Remains was a masterful performance. Kang the Conqueror was the biggest highlight of Quantimania.

And I mean in all of the Multiverse saga, the Loki series was the best. I can’t think of another multiverse movie or series that can be as good as Loki in terms of the story. Maybe No way home and Deadpool & Wolverine but that’s it!

They did it wrong. If they don’t bring back Kang or his variants in the upcoming movies, the story is going to be jumbled and incoherent!

I was so excited for Avengers: The Kang Dynasty! After that point the Multiverse saga was dead.

I just hope that Doomsday is going to be great. Because I’ve read Secret Wars, and if they do it well, the movie and Dr. Doom will save this saga.