Missing the point with the “too little setup” for Doomsday discussion

I have seen endless comments on how Doomsday will suffer because Doom wasn’t built up in the same way Thanos or kang was, and everytime there are counter arguments saying that there really wasn’t THAT much Thanos setup before Infinity War…

In my opinion this misses the point entirely. The setup leading into IW wasn’t just about thanos himself, it was seeding the infinity stones themselves deeply throughout phase 1, 2, and 3, even if the earliest uses ended up being retcons. They were retcons that worked. And as a result the audience was deeply familiar, if not with thanos, than at least with the infinite power of the items he was trying to collect. And in that way we did have extensive expositional and emotional buildup to IW, and were deeply connected to and invested in the potential for the stones to be assembled by the newly fully-realized thanos and used against or by our heroes. (Not to mention our connection to the heroes who had personal stakes with, and connections to many of the stones, as prominently featured as main plot devices in no fewer than 7 major phase 1-3 films)

Doomsday simply has none of that. Just a meh post credit scene and the weight of RDJ’s reputation and fan service. I really hope they pull a rabbit out of the hat, but the concerns of rushed setup are valid in my opinion. Not rushed character, but rushed story. What do you all think?

TLDR: The setup for doom himself isn’t rushed so much as setup of any understanding of what he might be trying to accomplish and why we should be invested

Edited to mention how many films the stones themselves were the main plot devices for in phase 1-3

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Commentaires

BatmanForever232025-10-07 17:45

Agreed. Although any discourse on this matter will ultimately be decided on whether the movie is good, and while ultimately that is all that matters, people who claim there was no real build-up to IW are intentionally misrepresenting how much of the infinity stones we'd seen. Had it all been planned from the start? No, that would also be misrepresenting things a bit - but they appeared quite a lot.

Edboy7962025-10-07 18:30

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BatmanForever232025-10-07 18:33

I personally care significantly less how it performs than if it's good and if I enjoy it.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:36

The cinema changed after endgame. We will never see those numbers again. China doesn’t care anymore and covid changed peoples cinema habits as it’s crazy expensive even for one person to have a movie night let alone a family

BatmanForever232025-10-07 18:39

Ok? Idk why people are replying to my comment with this stuff... I said literally jack about performance of the movie.

Edboy7962025-10-07 19:03

I'm of the same sentiment, but their recent films have been a bit hit or miss for various reasons.

Edit: man ya'll are soft. Down vote away

pawpawsr2025-10-07 18:49

Exactly, people acting like Thanos just popped in outta nowhere are kinda rewriting history.

labbla2025-10-07 19:45

We got a whole lot of Thanos in Guardians of the Galaxy. That gave us his general motivations, who he's involved with and Gamora and Nebula who are hugely important to making Infinity War and Endgame work. It's not just about screen time it's about the infrastructure that was built to make those movies happen. It also helped that we got to see the Avenger characters were in multiple movies in the lead up giving the audience characters to care about going into those epic crossovers.

Outrageous-Medium7092025-10-09 11:14

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labbla2025-10-09 19:10

I don't give a shit about a force of nature moment. That's the last thing I'm worried about. I'm worried about Doom having any reason to interact with these people, we don't even know how he and Reed interact together. Now that's going to be muddled in a big crossover with Fox X-Men and two Avengers teams.

We got to know Thanos's daughters and hear his history with other characters before Infinity War even happened. There's a lot more to storytelling and especially making a cinematic universe feel like a universe than just a big hype moment.

If all you want is hype moments than that's a YouTube compilation, not a real movie.

Phoeptar2025-10-07 17:46

But Doomsday has that too. It's the multiverse saga, they've been seeding things since Phase 4 Wandavision.

Left_Maize8162025-10-07 18:21

Since endgame when the ancient one described how a multiverse is made.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:37

Except they’ve contradicted that extensively with everything in Loki and in the multiverse saga at large

Left_Maize8162025-10-07 19:43

Regardless, the multiverse was established as a thing at that point in the timeline.

snacksandsoda2025-10-07 19:14

No, Kang Dynasty has that. Doomsday markedly does not.

Phoeptar2025-10-07 19:15

Doomsday and secret wars are about multiverses. Wandavision and many movies and tv shows since are about multiverses.

snacksandsoda2025-10-07 19:22

We've got no way home, multiverse of madness, and Loki - not a lot of multiversal content for the "multiverse saga." Technically we can throw fantastic 4 in since they are in a different reality.

Also, Wandavision isn't about multiverse stuff at all.

Phoeptar2025-10-07 19:42

She literally pulls her children's image from the multiverse. Then, beyond Loki, Spidey 3, and Strange 2, there's been What If (2 seasons), quantumania, The Marvels, deadpool and wolverine, Captain America 4 (post credits), Thunderbolts (post credits), and Fantastic Four fully taking place in an alternate universe. Hell, Wanda's kid Wiccan, in Agatha All Along, is like a consciousness fragment from the multiverse or something.

There's been as much if not more multiverse crumbs as there were Infinity Stone crumbs

CalmGiraffe13732025-10-07 19:19

This is assuming that they completely threw out the entire story they had set up, rather than just slotting Doom in where Kang would have been (or what I still think is happening, just giving Doom a slightly bigger role than he would already have had, and changing the name of the movie to fool people)

Mizerous2025-10-07 20:38

If you're getting rid of Kang might as well dump out anything involving him.

kriswone2025-10-07 17:47

Bunch of babies

***"hold my hand, prep me for movie daddy"***

Ubergoober1662025-10-07 17:49

And you're basing this on what exactly? As far as we know, Doomsday is going to be the culmination of all of the same multiverse shenanigans we've been dealing with since the beginning of this saga. God of stories Loki holding the multiverse together, incursions, other universes dying, variants from other universes crossing over. All stuff that's been front and center for the majority of this saga and which will all likely culminate with the multiverse collapsing completely so Doom can create Battle World for Secret Wars. I'm not sure what more setup you were expecting.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 17:57

I am saying specifically that going into IW we knew why these things were important. Im not saying they won’t find some way to brilliantly tie in everything we’ve seen in the last 5 years, I’m just saying that it is utterly unclear if that will actually be the case. You are speculating as much as anyone. Again, I say wholeheartedly I hope it ends up being another amazing Russo film, just we really won’t know with this one until opening night is all

Ubergoober1662025-10-07 18:01

Yea, I get that. So far, though, the Russo's have done 3 movies in the MCU and managed to not only make Captain America cool but also tie the entire Infinity Saga together. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt as of now.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:05

I just know as someone who is a life long film lover and in the film industry myself, that almost everyone gets overconfident and cocky after so much success. I truly hope the russos are the exception. But just look at Love and Thunder to see how easily it can go wrong when you have complete trust in any one filmmaker. My faith in the russos stem from their tv background. They know how to make impossible teams work. But then I also had faith in Joss for the same reasons. And he burned out even before he was canceled

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:09

And my real worry stems from the fact they will need to devote so much time to Doom himself there will be no room to include the elements that have comprised phases 4 and 5. Just like IW spent little time on the stones, except for soul, cause they’d already done that work and devoted to thanos himself. I worry like it’s gonna be too much of a rehash of IW just with different goals for the villain. It will need to be 3 hours and they’ve barely been giving us 2 lately

shdw_fghtr2025-10-07 17:51

maybe doom shows up with the 10 rings and other multiversal artifacts.

playgroundmx2025-10-07 17:53

Well said. It’s not called Thanos Saga, it’s called Infinity Saga. Appropriate, since a lot of the focus in th movies were on the infinity stones.

Avengers: Infinity War was about the stones being collected and about to destroy half the universe. It wasn’t Avengers: Thanos.

Avengers: Doomsday is definitely going to be all about Dr Doom. Yeah it might be a good movie in the end, but the concern about feeling it’s being rushed is valid.

jaythebearded2025-10-07 18:13

It's not called the Doom saga though. It's been called the multiverse saga, which has had some set up across other movies and shows.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:40

But it is called Doomsday. IW wasn’t called Thanos’ day out

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:42

Maybe if they called it the Multiverse of Doom. Or Doom of the Multiverse. But no. It seems clear the focus is Doom himself

jaythebearded2025-10-07 18:47

Right, it's Dooms introduction.

There seems to be an unneeded conflating of being the focus of the movie he's being introduced in and the overall saga getting set up and foreshadowing throughout it.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:54

I just hope there is room for a proper not rushed introduction as well as the inclusion of the elements of the multiverse saga to date

jaythebearded2025-10-07 18:58

I don't see why there wouldn't be room, especially since we're also aware of secret wars being the climax of the multiverse saga, so Doomsday isn't forced to resolve everything, it's going to be introducing Doom and continuing to establish the saga

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 19:00

I think just after so many years of anticipating the Infinity War it’s very hard to reconcile knowing so little about what this story will be

jaythebearded2025-10-07 19:10

While I definitely think there's a lot of ways they could have been handling these recent Phases and this Saga better, I'm glad they're not just trying to recreate the way the infinity saga and Thanos played out. I'm excited to see this Doom centric movie while knowing next to nothing about how they're gonna roll out his story for the MCU, instead of anticipation to see foreshadowing and hints come together the way it was for Thanos it's anticipation of having no idea what we're in for.

They might drop the ball and make a mess and that'd be so disappointing, but I hope they give us a wild and unexpected thrill ride that we can't prepare for!

Grayx_28872025-10-07 17:53

As if there was any time trying to set up Victor Von Doom as the main antagonist?! Need I remind you that for the past four years, Marvel Studios was just wasting g their time trying to talk about how important the fucking multiverse was in two different movies and also, this guy was supposed to be our main villain in Avengers 5. But that ain't gonna happen.

![gif](giphy|ccYQpcAaXHeGcIkSsO)

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 17:55

Exactly. Which is the only reason I have concern. I was fascinated by the kang setup. Especially through Loki. Now I feel as though it’s all a leap of faith

Grayx_28872025-10-07 17:56

![gif](giphy|f9pfXfBprp0f0UPRtt)

Mizerous2025-10-07 20:46

"Kang was never the big bad Doom was and is the villain." Feige gaslight power activated

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 17:54

DonquixoteDFlamingo2025-10-07 17:54

If it were me, I’d base Doom’s plan in people as Macguffins.

Kang, America Chavez, Wanda, Franklin, Shang-Chi, and Ms. Marvel all have things that could be used to further Doom’s goal. Were invested in a few of them and could be handled pretty well. It would be a repeat of the Vision thing though.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:01

I hear you. I’ve thought similarly. i don’t know what else they can do without just throwing away 5 years of storytelling and saying look it’s RDJ!!! That’s why it would’ve been great to see some more understanding of the rings and the bangles and even the multiverse itself before this film

loanme202025-10-07 17:57

remember how Captain Marvel felt like she didn't belong in the Infinity War saga? basically a big cameo. everyone that was recently introduced will be thought of similarly. everyone that has been in a few movies will be loved just like Infinity War. afraid of it falling into a Eternals like funk where no one really cares about any of the characters because they aren't attached to actors playing them.

threemo2025-10-07 17:57

I for one am glad we can continue having this discussion every single day with no new information whatsoever.

mcdude9102025-10-07 18:02

Not to mention that at least a few characters (namely the Guardians) had a personal connection to Thanos himself. Gamora and Nebula very directly, Drax vowed revenge for his family, and the rest of them spent the first movie opposing one of his direct subordinates.

It was revealed immediately at the end of The Avengers that Thanos was in some way responsible for Loki's villainy in that movie.

Even if Thanos didn't get all that much screentime before Infinity War, that movie was the joining of two groups: One, a group of characters who were directly aware of and actively opposing him, that came together to take down one of his lackeys (Guardians of the Galaxy), and the other, another group of characters who came together to take down another of his lackeys (The Avengers; even if they weren't aware of his being behind the scenes, the audience was). Add this to OP's point that the infinity stones themselves were set up with their own personal stakes, and we were going into Infinity War with a lot of connections already offered to be explored.

I know Marvel pivoted, that this wasn't the plan all along, and they didn't have the foresight to drop breadcrumbs for a movie they had no reason to believe they could even legally make (before the Fox properties acquisition), but even 1 movie can introduce breadcrumbs (case in point, the character motivations referenced in Guardians of the Galaxy).

The FF movie could have at least gone as far as to give Doom some sort of past relationship with the team, or in some way indicate that they even know who he is. I understand RDJ is $$$, but a couple throwaway lines from the actors they COULD afford would have gone a long way.

I'm super excited for the movie and I think there's a good chance Marvel can pull this off without these personal stakes leading into it, but there's something to be said about the characters and audience's only interactions with Doom being a single stinger. As it stands, a couple shots of the Latverian U.N. seat being empty is all we have otherwise, and I'm not sure that's enough if they want us going into Doomsday with existing personal stakes and connections.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:34

Yes. Agree with all of this. Thanos was an everpresent threat even if he wasn’t fleshed out until IW. Maybe some of the over-reliance on seeding future plots, which was phased out after the Marvel Studios restructuring, and was largely criticized for taking away from the current films, had some benefit after all. Maybe more of a balance can be struck and not have it relegated only to post credit scenes. Most of which have not panned out at all anyway

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:51

Maybe if they seed plot lines in the films and not only post credit they will be harder to drop them unceremoniously

mcdude9102025-10-07 21:11

The thing is that I think they were doing seeding perfectly fine for a Kang movie, even if ultimately they didn't go that direction (and even if that would have been a less-than-stellar direction to go regardless). They introduced him heavily in arguably their most popular new TV series and they made him (or a variant of him?) a villain of one of the movies. That's not that far behind the setup that specifically Thanos got before Infinity War. At least then we had Ant-Man and Loki both being aware of this guy. It was SOMETHING.

It would certainly help too if we could have had some interactions between our characters leading up to this movie, like in a smaller Avengers movie or something, as it's a lot easier to give personal stakes to multiple characters if they all appear in a project together, but that's another conversation that's been discussed to death.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 21:25

oh totally! Thanos got 2 appearances other than the avengers stinger before IW. He who remains and the Conquerer were plenty. I was excited for it

YodaWattsLee2025-10-07 18:06

I just don’t understand why people thinks there needs to be a “setup” in previous movies for there to be a good villain with a good story.

Killmonger had no setup in previous movies.

Vulture had no setup in previous movies.

The High Evolutionary had no setup in previous movies.

Darth Vader, Freddy Kruger, Norman Bates, Hannibal Lecter, Hans Gruber, the shark in Jaws, Agent Smith, Hans Landa, The Wicked Witch, Anton Chigurh, etc, etc, etc.

You didn’t need previous films to set up some of the greatest antagonists in cinema history. Amazing characters can be introduced, developed, and given a complete character arc in one movie. It happens all the time.

BatmanForever232025-10-07 18:34

Because this is meant to be a film that brings a saga of storytelling to a conclusion... unlike literally every other film you mentioned. If you can't understand, I'm quite worried about you..

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:45

Couldn’t have said it better. Cause it’s the culmination of a saga of films that are supposed to be telling an overarching story which has been absent. Since the saga aspect has been missing it makes it hard to see how this will be the culmination of said saga

Lower_Monk65772025-10-07 18:42

I was gonna say. At lot of OP’s post feels a little revisionist.

Like, yes, Thanos briefly showed up at the end of the first Avengers movie. But then he went radio silent for years.

Quite separately, there were individual stories around some powerful mystic forces (Tesseract, Loki’s scepter, the Aether) that didn’t really tie together at all, nor were they originally envisioned to be Infinity Stones. I believe the first concrete mention of an Infinity Stone was during GotG, which was near the end of Phase 2. After that, they started retconning the other McGuffins to also be Infinity Stones. We never even got a clear “what does this all actually mean” on screen until maybe Ragnarok, though most comic book fans knew well before that.

There was a lot of interconnectivity in the first three phases that have been missing since. But Thanos didn’t really become the Thanos that we all know until Infinity War.

There is nothing preventing the writers from taking plot points from previous movies and tying them together in a narratively satisfying way to make Doom feel like a huge force in short order. We just haven’t seen it happen yet, as opposed to having the benefit of hindsight for all of the Infinity Saga.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:56

I am actually saying exactly what you are. That while thanos hadn’t had much personal setup, but he was a lurking threat. But what we did get lots of setup on was the stones themselves and their incomparable power. So I hope Doom is able to bring in elements we’ve seen from the multiverse saga I to his introductory story. The only issue is it’s redoing iW in some ways, but maybe that’s not a bad thing. As IW is the gold standard

My worries aren’t about doom being done well, more about the movie feeling earned

I did say the early uses were retconned. Just retconned well

Lower_Monk65772025-10-07 19:09

Oh, I know! Apologies if I didn’t make it clear that I was agreeing upon the (good) retcon of preexisting plot elements to fit the narrative of the Infinity Stones.

I think my overall point is that I don’t feel that Thanos/Infinity Stones really started to coalesce into a single story until near the end of Phase 3. It kind of didn’t even start until GotG. But to their credit, they clearly had an idea of what was going to happen by the middle of Phase 2 and then started reshuffling the board to accommodate that.

I feel like it won’t take that much of a push to get Doom to that same level. All they really need is to tie him in to the story of Incursions and Kang/the TVA, and I feel like they’ll be pretty close. The fact that they chose RDJ as Doom also means that they’re likely going to reframe a lot of the story we’ve already seen through a different perspective using a character that we’re all very familiar with. That’s probably a slightly easier lift than finally dropping Thanos into the story during Infinity War, which basically served as his origin story. I imagine Doomsday will be similar for Doctor Doom.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 19:54

You’re right. It didn’t coalesce until the end. But there were some patterns regarding infinity stones being important throughout. And because we’ve had no sequels or follow ups to anything in multiverse we aren’t able to see why is important to Doom and what isn’t. And there will have to be A LOT more exposition within Doomsday than IW needed

AnonymousFriend802025-10-07 21:16

Thanos was a lurking threat for people who knew what he was in comics and other media. Him showing up at the end of Avengers was at best an easter egg, especially with the line "To court death".

He showed up later in Guardians, and that leads you to believe he is specific to that series. Then he shows up again in a stinger for Age of Ultron, again, only for those familiar with the comics to remotely understand.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 21:23

as a non comic reader I did not know who he was when I first saw avengers. By the time guardians came out and infinity stones became a prominent story piece I learned all about thanos and his comic adventures just by reading marvel news. So only for those completely disconnected from the marvel advert machine was infinity war actually a surprise

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-08 05:19

They Do actually refer to the Aether as an infinity stone in Dark World

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 19:59

Also, most of those villains apart from killmonger were fairly one note characters. To make a villain worthy of thanos takes them Being connected to the story other than just as an outside antagonist

YodaWattsLee2025-10-07 20:37

Disagree with your first point, agree with your second point. But they’re not going to kill off Doom after one movie. He doesn’t need to have build up before his introduction. He needs build up after.

XComThrowawayAcct2025-10-07 18:23

All of this is acknowledgement of something fundamental to the MCU: **we don’t know why it worked**.

There were other franchises, of course. Probably the most significant competition was Harry Potter, but Mission Impossible has been there this whole time, too, and the Fast & the Furious. We like to dunk on the DCEU or the Dark Universe as examples of failed interconnected cinematic universes, but there were more wins than losses from this era of moviemaking. The MCU was arguably the only successful comic book or superhero cinematic universe that succeeded, but, I mean, all movie protagonists are superheroes.

So why was *Infinity War* / *Endgame* the biggest movie event possibly ever while everything that’s come after it has been lackluster?

>!🇨🇳!<

GarySoneji2025-10-07 18:33

You’re expecting Doomsday to be a parallel to Infinity War, but it’s Secret Wars everything has been building to. Doom needs as much setup as any other villain we’ve seen, which is not much at all.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:48

And endgame was what the infinity saga was building too. I’m not seeing how it’s not a parallel. The specifics will differ but not overall beats. Villain wins forcing our heros into an unimaginable future where they have to do the impossible to find a way for the u universe to survive

GarySoneji2025-10-07 20:23

Everything you mentioned was the lead up to Infinity War, which we have the same to go on for Secret Wars. We don’t know what Doomsday is about, so there isn’t a need to feel like it hasn’t been setup.

bbgamingandcollect172025-10-07 18:36

Doomsay IS the setup for Dr. Doom’s hero quest against the cause of the incursions. The Avengers are the baddies here.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:49

[deleted]

CalmGiraffe13732025-10-07 19:24

As they should.

If the storyline they had in mind works just fine without the villain they had in mind, then just use a different villain, don’t completely scrap the story.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 19:35

Fair enough lol. I just think it’s absurd all the criticism of the Conqueror being weak because anyone watching quantumania can clearly see they are setting up to be a sympathetic character at war with the dynasty for killing his family or something like that, “I HAVE lost. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I HAVE LOST!”he was never meant to be the big bad.

But if RDJ is the “villain” just to be a secret hero I feel that’s a cop out in a lot of ways. Let him really be menacing. That’s what I want. I want iron man to be kinda scary in hindsight after we see him as doom

Mizerous2025-10-07 20:40

It might not work with Doom if they're just reusing the KD script.

Mizerous2025-10-07 20:39

*Sigh* Doom gets that glow up when it's clear he is an egomanic not a hero.

Meme_Machine1012025-10-07 18:42

You don’t think they’re gonna retcon the last sagas worth of incursions plus Monica in the X-men world and the ten rings sending a distress signal though the multiverse to Doom in this?

Cause while it’s with a new villain I feel every thread is coming back into play

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 18:49

As I said I hope so!

Orion141592025-10-07 19:03

I have literally no idea what the plot of Doomsday will be, am ok with that, and will be reserving judgement until after I've seen it.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 19:29

I suppose i am of the same mind. I just get bugged seeing endless discussions of the lack of setup that the Infinity saga had when they literally spent years seeding exactly what came about in IW, not the ending per sey, but we knew exactly what that movie would be more or less. To the extent that I, not a book reader, was fully familiar with the infinity war from the books years before 2018 because it was clear what they were building toward. And they named the movie infinity war 4 years out lol. So it is a VERY different experience. One more in line with endgame. And I just hope it delivers

fairytechmum2025-10-09 05:51

Everybody wants Doomsday/Secret Wars to be another Infinity War/Endgame (tie every loose end)

But why can't it just be an Age of Ultron (self contained story).

MajorNoodles2025-10-07 19:04

The tesseract wasn't even supposed to be the space Stone. It was the Cosmic Cube. They retconned that in Thor 2. And the scepter wasn't retconned to be the mind Stone until Age of Ultron.

But to the credit of your point though, they did actually take the time to do these things where they have done no such thing for Doomsday.

navjot942025-10-07 19:07

What I’m thinking is that Doomsday is a direct sequel to Endgame. It’s caused by the Time Heist and the villain is an exact inverse of the main hero of Endgame. The time heist caused a multiversal mess and thus every bad phase 4 and 5 movie is part of the set up. A lil cheeky and this explanation of bad movies being bad for story reasons only works once. once they resolve this conflict, Marvel can’t afford to be messy again

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 19:32

That would be very interesting. But would again require the film to disregard the elements of the multiverse saga

Forsaken_Tip_5962025-10-07 19:20

There has been setup for Doomsday there’s just no setup for Doctor Doom.

Avengers: Endgame and Spider-Man: Far From home 1st gave us hints about the multiverse. And Variants. Inadvertently Far From Home also established the 616 universe.

Loki Seasons 1&2 introduced the Sacred timeline and the TVA.

Deadpool and Wolverine introduced the concept of Anchor Beings.

Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness and Spider-Man: No Way home introduced incursions.

Fantastic Four 1st Steps gave us Franklin Richards and finally introduced Doctor Doom himself.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 19:23

The fact of the matter is it’s speculation what if any of that will be used. I hope it is a film full of all the things you have mentioned!

Forsaken_Tip_5962025-10-07 19:27

I know after Comic Con last year when RDJ was announced Kevin Feige said Deadpool and wolverine was an 8/10 in terms of importance for the story of Doomsday. He wouldn’t have introduced Anchor Beings if that wasn’t important.

Now in terms of the rest of incursions and the multiverse falling apart having to create a new sacred timeline consisting of Anchor Beings we can only assume

Miroist2025-10-08 08:40

Hindsight is a great thing - it was all speculation how the stones would be used prior to IW too.

Sharkbait_O_aha2025-10-08 09:15

I mean I think it’s fairly obvious that incursions, loki and variants will be used throughout doomsday, I think there is hints to what’s coming but it’s just not in the same format as before and much less used. I don’t disagree that it’s underused compared to infinity saga but I am hoping they can do some justice. It’s much easier to set up the infinity war with the infinity stones because they were physical objects around the universe that could have stories around them, doctor doom with what’s coming doesn’t have the same thematics. There isn’t just physical objects to be thrown into movies that he is chasing, he is chasing something more ethereal that isn’t something you can base a movie around like an infinity stones

Forsaken_Tip_5962025-10-08 16:23

Yeah the issue with that is there are to many projects in the Multiverse Saga that are completely disconnected and you pretty much have to streamline the projects that we all consider apart of the main storyline.

Like to me there are only 10-12 projects in the Multiverse Saga that I even consider as apart of the main storyline when I decide to binge the MCU

Equivalent-Exam26412025-10-09 00:04

Endgame and FFH weren't the first references to the existence of the multiverse.

Doctor Strange, after the Ancient One sent him on that mind trip...

The Ancient One: [as Doctor Strange is being moved through various dimemsions of the Multiverse] "You think you know how the world works? You think that this material universe is all there is? What is real? What mysteries lie beyond the reach of your senses? At the root of existence, mind and matter meet. Thoughts shape reality. This universe is only one of an infinite number. Worlds without end. Some benevolent and life giving. Others filled with malice and hunger. Dark places where powers older than time lie ravenous... and waiting. Who are you in this vast multiverse, Mr. Strange?"

MrMooey122025-10-09 04:33

I fully agree here but the thing for me I’ve seen is, a lot of that development imo feels kinda disconnected? For instance with the stones we obviously could tell the goal was collect all the stones. And to me there was a clear idea behind all the setup they featured. With doomsday I don’t feel like all that setup was coherent. All the stuff you mentioned with the setup is so true and makes a lot of sense but I didn’t connect those dots until you mentioned it.

I’m worried the general audience will not be able to connect those dots and then skip the movie. Hell my mom almost skipped F4 because she was worried because she’s never seen one of the movies before, I was finally able to convince her she had absolutely no reason to watch the previous movies and ends up absolutely loving it

PleaseRecharge2025-10-09 14:43

Deadpool & Wolverine's "anchor being" idea slips away when you realize how much sense it doesn't make. As others always say, there is always a point in that timeline where that character will die, so the universe is destined to stop existing there anyhow. On top of that, there's a lot of lore in Deadpool & Wolverine that clashes with how the multiverse ***should*** work now, like being sent to the "end of time" despite there not just being one end of time now that Yggdrassil is how the multiverse resembles, unless you're willing to tell me the 2000s Fantastic Four universe is retconned to have mutants and Avengers thanks to Cassandra Cain and Scott Lang's existence.

What made the "sacred" timeline sacred was that HWR would be born at a point where he would kill himself snd take the reins, and that would loop. That doesn't exist anymore. The loop that Storyteller Loki is apart of isn't even the main timeline, and there is no loop, so Paradox was definitely off his rocker.

It also doesn't make sense since there isn't a sacred timeline anymore, just the main timeline that we as viewers follow because it's the one we've been viewing for almost 20 years now, which is why ever since Loki Season 1, we've been having other characters from all over the place enter the main timeline. Nothing "sacred" about it anymore.

I think Deadpool & Wolverine definitely takes place under HWR's TVA and not Loki's. Too much lore makes no sense if you view it as after Loki Season 2.

CaspBoy2025-10-10 14:29

How exactly does No Way Home introduces Incursions?

Dedli2025-10-07 19:36

Infinity Stones were literally mentioned in one movie before Infinity War, and even though we knew what Thanos' goal was in the comics, it wasnt confirmed till Infinity War released.

There's no real difference between the Infinity Saga and the Multiverse Saga, because all we know going into the end is that Big Bad will use Stuff From Other Movies to fuck shit up.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 19:39

That’s not true. They were mentioned in the dark world, GOTG, Age of Ultron, Dr Strange all by the name infinity stones. They were Integral parts of of the films even when they were not explicitly called I infinity stones

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-07 19:41

The only one specifically retconned was the tesseract. Lokis staff was never defined as anything but mind controlling. So that was not a retcon but just a development

FafnirSnap_94282025-10-07 22:11

Agreed. It's all rather desperate with no reasoning and final ending seemingly in mind from the beginning. RDJ as Doom was the most desperate stunt, and I still don't like it and have doubts about it. But overall, we have no understanding what he is trying to do nor the threat he poses within the context of these films.

Earthwick2025-10-08 05:33

I think it's very clear what happened. Their Villians movie didn't do good and he got in trouble with Johny law. So they lateraled and switched to the first families villian. If they do it good no one will care and will just accept maybe we don't need a decade to set up a avengers movie. That said imagine how good a setup for Ultron would have been. So if doom is the villian I think it's a little weak but if he ends up saving the day against the beyonder or something in secret wars than that would be awesome.

Big_Epsilon2025-10-08 11:05

My assumption is that:

Ms Marvel - bangle

The Marvels - bangles, other universe

Shang Chi - echoing of the 10 rings

NWH - incursions

Loki - all of it

Quantumania - Kang stuff

Deadpool and Wolverine - TVA and anchor beings

WandaVision - Darkhold

Dr Strange MoM - trips through the multiverse

Cap Sam - rebuilding the Avengers

Thunderbolts - end credits (both avengers controversy and the ship)

F4 - Doom

will be viewed as having build up. Hindsight helped before IW, and it’ll help here, too.

There’s probably more, even Endgame and the power of the stones.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-08 15:13

I guess my issue is that we really don’t have even a concept of what the bangles and the rings actually are, Other than super old, whereas the infinity stones even without seeding were pretty self explanatory

Big_Epsilon2025-10-08 15:27

Were they? They were entirely separate things to begin with, as mentioned with the retcons. Without knowledge of the comics, a viewer could have no concept of what they were used for in the end and the threat, maybe plots of the big films coming.

It was enjoyable because it worked looking back, and it worked for the big films to use as a plot point. All of the above could, I think, so I’m ok with it.

I have my problems with MCU since Endgame - nowhere near as many or with any of the intensity (Secret Invasion aside!) as others - but I think they have presented the ideas and moments to work with for a big event.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-09 19:26

You had stones specifically labeled, Space, Mind, Reality, Power, Time, and Soul. Even if you aren’t filled in on the specifics, the nature of the stones gave the random viewer easy and grounded concepts to understand their immense power without more than a line or two at the beginning of IW

tepenrod2025-10-08 14:38

In my mind the issue isn’t with the villain or the mcguffin/ concept of what they’re after being set up. It’s the Avengers themselves. The Infinity Saga did a much better job giving most heroes multiple films and appearances that really tied you to them and made them feel like established heroes. Most obvious example: I loved Shang Chi, he needed another movie before now. They thankfully have some through line characters with Bucky, Captain America and so on, but the ratio of characters with a single appearance to fleshed out members of the team is way off. I’m worried the dynamics of the team is just going to bounce off.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-08 14:43

Well that was the Saga part of the infinity saga. The story of these heroes coming together and getting spilt apart and having to fight the greatest evil weakened and separated. We have had plenty multiverse, just no saga to go along with it. So absolutely, the biggest missing piece is an investment in the new people. I care infinitely more about the Thunderbolts team than anyone else cause we actually got to see them have some growth this ‘saga’

tepenrod2025-10-08 17:57

Yeah agreed, Thunderbolts has been one of my favorite movies out of this "saga". I guess if we frame it more like we were heading into Avengers 1 that might make it feel a little better. I think our expectations have shifted as the MCU has grown. Multiple movies would have helped feel more invested in characters. The best example I can think of is Yelena. She was in Black Widow, made an appearance in Hawkeye, and then starred in Thunderbolts. She has more screen time than Black Widow did when she was first brought into The Avengers, and she's easily one of my favorite new characters because I feel like I know what she's about.

I suppose you also have to consider characters like Hawkeye. Made a brief cameo in Thor and then straight into Avengers, but didn't really get a full character arc until Age of Ultron.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-08 18:03

I’ve tried thinking of it like the first avengers, except the threat in that movie was very self contained. And a villain we already cared about. These upcoming avengers flicks are going to be sprawling massive stories. They themselves are treating this as an IW Endgame like pairing, not like a regular avengers flick. We never went more than 3 years without an avengers movie in infinity saga, they hurt themselves not having a lower stakes avengers movie between endgame and doomsday. It’ll be 7.5 years between them by its release. An interim avengers would have made it feel much more like a saga to me

GarySoneji2025-10-08 19:49

It helps to acknowledge that only four years have passed since Endgame. Doomsday will take place about five years after WandaVision. Most of what we’ve seen has taken place over three years.

tepenrod2025-10-08 20:06

Sure but for the viewer it’s been far longer. Endgame came out in 2019. By the time Doomsday comes out it will have been 7 years of real time. That’s a long gap of anticipation and buildup where characters are sitting idle. Compare that to Spider-man which (I know it’s a different studio and rights thing) will have had 3 films since Endgame.

GarySoneji2025-10-09 03:58

It took four years from Iron Man to the Avengers. This entire Saga was planned to take four to five years. The pandemic and strike added two years to that, but the overall plan was mostly unchanged.

Spider-Man had three movies in six years, but it will be five years for the fourth. Hulk, rights aside, hasn’t even had one in 17. From their introductions, it took 11 years for Black Widow to get a movie and 10 for Hawkeye to be featured in a series.

Considering the current amount of characters and real-life events, it’s not unusual for things to take a little bit of extra time. That’s why the idea of Sagas and Phases should be dropped. People naturally compare and contrast them, but completely ignore the context of their existence.

Zar-Djoser-00112025-10-09 04:34

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davwad22025-10-09 09:26

*The Multiverse Saga* may have been better served if each phase had stories set in other universes, so that the incursions matter. The other universes (maybe up to three?) would have introduced us to heroes from those universes and shown us lives on the other side.

So far, we have the X-Men universe where Monica ended up after *The Marvels*; the one introduced in *F4: First Steps*; and there were a bunch introduced in *Multiverse of Madness*, but we only spent significant time in the Illuminati one and the Sinister Strange one.

I'm not invested enough in those non-616 universes to be saddened by their losses, if it comes to that.

Aggravating-Mix20942025-10-09 16:16

YES!! I was just thinking the other day that to really get us invested in a multiverse saga, they should have set each of the new characters in a new universe and have us invested in the multiverse in that way. They could’ve still had stories in our main universe overseas as well, but that would’ve been an approach I’d have enjoyed I think and would have created real anticipation as to how they would all come together. As it is I feel like we are all just waiting for it to be done to get to secret wars

Outrageous-Medium7092025-10-09 11:11

I think the complaints about lack of setup for Dr. Doom are silly once people take off their rose-tinted glasses and realise there wasn't a HUGE amount of setup or Thanos either. We got:

1. Grin at end of Avengers 1
2. Brief, way-too-forced feeling appearance in Guardians 1 (this Thanos was a paper-thin character, just a 'ooh big bad' inclusion)
3. "Fine, I'll do it myself"
4. Then, Infinity War/Endgame

That's REALLY not a whole lot?

Plus, we know Kang was the original intended big bad, and they set him up at the very beginning of the Multierse saga REALLY WELL with Loki. Obviously Marvel can't control real life events, so they had to pivot, but seeing Doom for the first time in these new films reeeeally won't be too much further from Thanos' few appearances/mentions in lead up to IW/Endgame

(Also, I'm sorry, but the wider general audience only really got proper invested with Civil War > Infinit Way > Endgame, I can remember this vividly, so majority of them only experienced Thanos properly in the opening of IW, which worked perfectly.)

Honestly, I think they should have recast Kang, but I really wasn't a fan of him as a big bad in the first place, so I'm happy with Doom at this point. Also, the multiverse is the main thing they needed to set up, which they asolutely have done from Loki to Wandavision/MoM, Spidey NWH, What If, Marvels, etc

PLUS, having Downey Jr return DOES connect things thematically. I'm still skeptical, but I have faith they're cooking something good. I think, in the same way IW/Endgame were a great full circle moment from the MCU starting in 2008, Doomsday/Secret Wars will be a great full circle moment from Marvel hero films starting with Blade/X-Men/Spider-Man in the early 2000s.

Would more build-up for Doom have been better? Absolutely.

Does it negativey impact the current plan that much? Not really.