I'm surprised at how toxic the "debate" was about the MCU being called "Earth-616" in its projects when in the end... it wasn't even that big of a deal.
Rewatching Thor: The Dark World (well, so-so, except for Frigga's funeral), I got to the scene where Selvig was explaining the convergence and the term "Earth-616" appeared on his whiteboard. It reminded me of how absurd the debate over whether the MCU should be called Earth-616 or Earth-199999 was. That argument, which was reignited with Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, always seemed unnecessary to me.
I understand that many fans considered it a gesture of arrogance, since the MCU doesn't faithfully follow the comics and calling itself "Earth-616" felt like it invalidated the comics, but the arguments against using the term 616 didn't make much sense. Officially, several Marvel Studios films and series have already used it (Thor 2, Far From Home, Loki, Multiverse of Madness, Deadpool & Wolverine), while "Earth-199999" only appeared in a reference book and in Across the Spider-Verse, which is also a Sony production with no support from Marvel Studios.
Calling the MCU "Earth-616" gave Feige and the creative teams greater freedom to build their own multiverse, without relying on the ever-changing logic of the comics. Trying to align the rules of the MCU with those of the comic book universe would only have generated a lot of confusion and unnecessary contradictions, similar to what happens with Across the Spider-Verse, where the "canonical events" contradict what has been established in the comics before and even now (just look at how the current Ultimate Spider-Man follows almost none of the canonical events presented in the film).
That's why it makes sense for the MCU to function as its own multiverse, independent of the comic book universe, just as Web of Shadows does, as the 90s animated series did in their time. Even Sony's Spider-Verse saga omits details from the comics in favor of its narrative. In the end, in my opinion, the discussion was only about the purism of the fandom, rather than whether or not it would benefit future stories.
Can you imagine if everything had to respond to everything? We wouldn't have projects like Marvel Rivals, the Spider-Verse saga, the new Ultimate universe, etc.
I understand that many fans considered it a gesture of arrogance, since the MCU doesn't faithfully follow the comics and calling itself "Earth-616" felt like it invalidated the comics, but the arguments against using the term 616 didn't make much sense. Officially, several Marvel Studios films and series have already used it (Thor 2, Far From Home, Loki, Multiverse of Madness, Deadpool & Wolverine), while "Earth-199999" only appeared in a reference book and in Across the Spider-Verse, which is also a Sony production with no support from Marvel Studios.
Calling the MCU "Earth-616" gave Feige and the creative teams greater freedom to build their own multiverse, without relying on the ever-changing logic of the comics. Trying to align the rules of the MCU with those of the comic book universe would only have generated a lot of confusion and unnecessary contradictions, similar to what happens with Across the Spider-Verse, where the "canonical events" contradict what has been established in the comics before and even now (just look at how the current Ultimate Spider-Man follows almost none of the canonical events presented in the film).
That's why it makes sense for the MCU to function as its own multiverse, independent of the comic book universe, just as Web of Shadows does, as the 90s animated series did in their time. Even Sony's Spider-Verse saga omits details from the comics in favor of its narrative. In the end, in my opinion, the discussion was only about the purism of the fandom, rather than whether or not it would benefit future stories.
Can you imagine if everything had to respond to everything? We wouldn't have projects like Marvel Rivals, the Spider-Verse saga, the new Ultimate universe, etc.
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And that was also something I forgot to mention, that Earth-616 is an easier and simpler term to remember than the other designation (which even fans have a hard time remembering what it really is)
I'm sure that if Across's dialogue of "don't even bother me with Doctor Strange and the nerdy kid from Earth-19999" had omitted Strange and just said "the nerdy kid from Earth-19999," many casual people would have said "what?"
In the real world, 616 is the comics, the movies are 9999-something
And it's not something that new. In the Arrowverse, they called the base universe "Earth-Prime."
The whole point behind the labels was just a nerdy replacement for "That's the ultimate universe", "that's the noir universe", "that's the future universe". Having him write "616" on the chalkboard was a fun easter egg since that's where everything started but now if someone says "earth 616", you have to ask "Do you mean the comics or the movies?". They made it even more confusing.
My one request from Doomsday is for Reed to show up to the MCU and call it "Earth 958" or something with someone saying "We heard it was 616" "Who said that?" "Mysterio...the person that lied about being a dimensional traveler...shit. Alright. Earth 958 it is".
In the real world it’s called 616, because it’s a piece of fiction and that’s what the man in charge of said piece of fiction has called it…
What would it be like if the Marvel Rivals team had to abide by the current comics continuity? There would be no story at all.
Keeping them seperate really is the best thing because it prevents things like Morlun murdering the MvC Spider-Man for no other reason except shock value.
As well as modifying the story to suit their needs, I don't see Sony trying to negotiate with Disney just so they can say "Peter died because before that, he was shot by the Punisher while protecting Captain America," when they can have RiPeter's death be written by and for the development of their Miles.
And on top of that, it seems that not even the film itself takes its designations seriously, like Miles is from Earth-1610, while we even see one of Peter Ultimate's clones designated as "Earth-1610-A."
What's the A? The Earth from the comics? Impossible. That Earth is destroyed. A variant of Miles's? So the letters start from Miles' universe, which doesn't have a letter?
Like Across the Spider-Verse that includes cameos from Spider-People from god knows how may video games and cartoons with their own multiverse's while Miguel mentions dealing with fallout from FFH and Spot visits the SPUMC which has had two travellers from MCU Earth. Or a canon tie-in comic where Kahhori from What If...? (MCU multiverse) visits the regular comic books main Earth or an easter egg in a Young Avengers comic implying they visited the MCU's main verse.
The funny thing is the Earth-\[NUMBER\] thing has always been shaky canon-wise. Marvel weren't using an internal database and instead writers were both using and contributing numbers not already in official material to this fan-run webpage to keep it straight: [http://www.marvunapp.com/master/earthteaz.htm](http://www.marvunapp.com/master/earthteaz.htm) with a guidebook printing that URL making it semi-official. And twice writers have accidentally used fan-made designations from wikias in their official works despite those numbers already being used (specifically, the SPUMC and Contest of Champions game).
We can either consider the 199999 designation obsolete, or pretend that it refers to the entire MCU multiverse from the outside. Like it's a pocket multiverse.
It doesn't really matter anyway because they are never going to use that universe in the comics anyway.
In fact, Gwenpool already casts more doubt on this every time she speaks because all her knowledge comes from the real world, her place of origin. Under that logic, the fact that she talks about Natalie Portman, Benedict Cumberbatch, or Emma Stone (in her most recent comic) indicates that she knows this because the MCU and the Amazing Saga exist in her world.
But then, in the Unlimited comics, you have Peter Parker with the Iron Spider MCU allied with an Insomniac Doctor Octopus...
That's all pretty weird.
Hence, they included it in the book because at that time, it was unknown how that project would turn out. In the end, that designation became obsolete for the movies... and comics, and they barely use it when they want to give a nod to the MCU.
Selvig already called the MCU "Earth-616," and after the events of that film, I wouldn't be surprised if he published articles, interviews, etc., about it, exposing his research. Quentin Beck's crew used that information to lend more credence to his story of being a multiverse traveler.
Hence, Thalos wasn't suspicious because, as such, what Mysterio said had scientific backing.
It just makes it seem more realistic to the other characters (like fury) if it’s somewhat grounded in real theory
Like how lots of sci-fi uses ideas based on the Alcubierre drive, because it grounds it in realism
Miles is 1610B, Peter B is 616B and so on.
MCU is 199999 (which is what Miguel calls it), but they could turn it into 616C
This only appeared in the second film, when the paper universes took on a more prominent role (notably 616A, to serve as an example in relation to the canon events).
That or people just cant agree to disagree anymore.
I prefer 199999 but I know this is not made by marvel studios people. So sure they can name their own project whatever they want.
Also, They gave us ironman, they gave us wintersoldier, spiderman trilogy, avengers.. yeah they can name it whatever they want.
"No creative team wants to be tied to the unstable continuity of the comics."
Likewise, the MCU Secret Wars will probably involve 3 or 4 established universes, plus whatever ones they need to invent to make the cameos they want happen.
I can’t think of any time the MCU has been explicitly connected to the comics universe at all.
If they were the same Multiverse, America should have dreamed with her comics counterpart, or be the same character, and that's just no how it is on the movie
The comics have an "MCU" universe in their multiverse.
The MCU doesn't have a comics portion of their multiverse.
ATSV features both characters from Live Action movies, animated shows, and the comics, and they're not separate variant
I mean it doesn’t matter, because who cares, but if you want to make it coherent for some reason, comics and movie must be in separate multiverses, each with its own designation system. Having 2 616s make it clear there are two designation systems.
Refer it in real life as 616-M (for MCU), it’s really not that different. I don’t know why there’s such a debate over it.
the MCU didn't have to stay as Earth-199999, they could've designated it Earth-528 as a reference to Iron Man 1s release date, and that could've been a cool and unique easter egg that nobody would complain about
The Spider-Verse comics contradict what we see in No Way Home, which clearly indicates that they can't be the same multiverse.
- Tobey and Andrew never mention having had multiverse experience before, when in the Spider-Verse comics they fought the Inheritors and should have already met.
- According to Tobey and Andrew, they haven't had any interesting villains beyond those seen in their sagas. Isn't the Inheritors and saving all versions of Spider-Man a crazier experience than fighting an alien in space?
And most importantly,
- Tobey and Andrew mention never having worked as a team; in Spider-Verse, they were literally part of the Spider-Man army.
Separate multiverses is only logical
They could have done that anyway by calling it anything other than 616.
Also, now if a layman ask what 616 means, we have to have an extra length to the explanation on why the fuck there are two universes called 616, and the idea of why there would be two multiverses when the term 'multiverse' in media implies 'every possible universe'. Which all could have been avoided if the MCU officially chose a different set of numbers - any number, but for SYNERGY we got this situation.
>the discussion was only about the purism of the fandom, rather than whether or not it would benefit future stories.
Okay. But I don't see how the 616 label also helps benefit future stories in the MCU...
It isn't 616, because 616 is something else already, and the MCU is nothing like it. It's simple as that. Words have meaning and they shouldn't be arbitrarily adhered to. "Literally" does not mean "figuratively".
How does using an existing definition give them freedom to do anything? They are already free to do anything, including free to be wrong about what universe this is, apparently. Not having that number never stopped them from doing anything.
I disagreed with your premise, was that the toxicity?
616 MCU and 616 comic
Edit: my god this is a word salad. I’ve just got off an 18 shift and brain fuzzy. Hopefully yall can sus out what I mean.
It serves to designate a world as the main one in their narrative. Using any new number would lead to the belief that they're in the same universe as the comics, and we'd enter into endless contradictions. Using 616 helps define that "this is something totally separate from the comics."
And it's nothing new. Spider-Verse says Mikey is from Earth 1610, and all of us who read comics know that's impossible.
Then they could have made comics in that universe that all tie in and it could have remained separate.
Having multiple universes is cool, having multiple multiverses is too much.
Using the same numbers is just a nod to the fans who are familiar with the terms. It's not a commitment to follow them slavishly.
We know the 616 had to have stemmed from a multiverse. This means the isolated timeline exists in phase and is dependent on the multuverse to exist in some sense. simply for it to exist at all. It is dependent upon the logical progression of any timeline it has entangled with to complete the oroborros of recreation.
And I don't buy the whole "generating confusion" thing. I think most people are able to separate media
It’s a pretty easy way to tell the few people who know enough to care, that this multiverse is separate to the comics, they don’t have to work around comic continuity because it’s just different
My theory as to why it’s always called 616 is that each universe has some kind of intrinsic thing, which in each universe is uniquely different, and which is best expressed as a number, in dark world selvig worked out what that thing would be, and of course mysterio’s script writer based it on some real science that he saw
But overall, this concept is stupid because it's based on the principle that for new universes to exist, the ENTIRE multiverse must be destroyed. This isn't something the MCU seems to be showing.
I get that the MCU is suppose to be a movie adaptation of the comics 616, but it’s not, it is a different story. I guess it’s one of those things that If you want to get nit picky they should be different designations, but it doesn’t really matter.
Otherwise, this would be a case of an Earth naming itself, where any one not knowing where it might actually reside in the actual numerical hierarchy of Earths might just arbitrarily choose 616 for itself.
This is the same idea in DC Comics where multiple Earths when meeting for the first time each ask why they, themselves, are not Earth-1.
1. No the MCU has not ONLY been addressed as Earth-199999 there. The official appendix to the handbook of the marvel universe is still updated with Earth-199999 references, showing that it’s not just “they used to call it Earth-199999, now it’s 616.” In fact the most recent usage as of now (to my knowledge has been 199999)
2. Everything does exist in the same multiverse. Does it make sense? Fuck no. But we can’t just ignore stuff like the TVA comic (stated by Feige to be the same TVA in the MCU) which again calls the MCU earth 199999, and goes to earth 616 in the comics, or the Kahorri comic which is the exact character from What If going into earth-616.
We can’t just ignore stuff we don’t like or doesn’t fit perfectly. The MCU isn’t separate from the comics and has several direct crossovers. If you didn’t know that, totally fair, but now you do.
But how does X (canon events, the sacred timeline, anchor beings etc) fit across both? It doesn’t. There’s never any clear rules with comics, they all contradict everything. One comic The Flash can go faster than time itself another he slips on ice. Even the MCU just within itself has some pretty major contradictions.
The comics are the 616. Is just disrespectful. It's like saying you are in some way better and greater, therefore you should replace them.