Something about the Avengers films that pisses me off.

Have you truly never noticed any stories IRL where people have different ideas on exactly what happened and who is *really* to blame?

So the movie can happen.

>Yet they keep acting like the Avengers wreak havoc by saving them.

Because they do. Some people being saved doesn't erase the ones being killed by collateral damage. Innocent people die in these battles and if their deaths happen because of the Avengers being reckless then it's still their fault, regardless of them saving the world in the process.

Politicians retell stories through different lenses to gain political power. This causes conflict, and thus drama.

Without opposition and struggle, we wouldn't have the films. The stupidity and misunderstanding of others is a feature of humanity and the MCU, not a bug.

That's one of the most realistic things about these films... look at the real world for a second.

Unfortunately, it's quite realistic and it's good that it pisses you off. Those storylines are coming from antagonists, they are designed to show you that sometimes accidents and collateral damage happen. And from the heroes point of view, it was necessary.

But from the outside, the guy who's Monday morning quarter backing? Yeah, he's pointing out every move they did wrong because it get's him points and allows him to create a scapegoat.

Civilians lost their lives, companies were probably ruined. Billions of dollars of property damage. This wasn't an "act of god", this was a bunch of people fighting. Someone needs to be held accountable, and unfortunately, the Avengers were the obvious targets.

Here's the thing. The accords were just an excuse to put them in a leash. It's pretty obvious but Stark didn't think so because he created Ultron. But the fault was his and his alone.


Just a blatant attempt to control the people they fear are above them. They definitely don't care about all the public property damage and deaths other than using it to put the blame on them.


Yes collateral damage unfortunately happens but there's nothing the Avengers can do about it other than trying to ensure as little damage as possible. It can never be zero.

Look at our world currently, on every single issue, nearly half of the population will oppose something simply because the other side supports it. It doesn’t have to be rational.

Humans always look for a scapegoat. That is the single *most* believable part of the movie. You need to know who to blame, punish, and send the bill to.

It’s America what do you expect?

The people who live in the Marvel world didn't get to see what we, the audience, got to see. They only get a small window of information (and dis-information) filtered through the news and social media. We got to actually look behind the scene and know what *actually* happened. They don't know Loki and Thor's back story, what happened in the SHIELD compound in the opening scene, what happened with the World Security Council, etc. All they know is that The Avengers had some beef with Loki and the Chitauri, and New York suffered, but the Avengers stopped them. Everything else gets filled in with their imaginations.

Wished there was a bit more of a push-back by Steve or Sam as Ross spoke to them at the HQ in Civil War.

"If I lost a couple of nukes, you bet there'd be consequences".

Would have been a perfrct opportunity to tell him that he helped create two nukes, Hulk and Abomination. And his consequences turned out to be becoming Secretary of State.

You’re kinda responsible for what happens when you’re in a fight.

In the audio commentary for “Avengers”, he mentions that he vetoed having a few quinjets slide off the helicarrier during the battle, saying “I feel like people would die, and then the Avengers are bad people”. This was years before “Civil War”.

It seems a little right to me. All that collateral property damage in New York? You're gonna have building owners and CEOs and Insurance companies freaking the fuck out and waving their power at local and state politicians to make someone financially responsible and oh hey a billionaire weapons manufacturer just happened to personally cause some of the damage

Hydra wouldn't have had the resources without SHIELD (and we know for a fact Tony was a big part of the design process). Loki's arrival might not have happened if they hadn't been mucking around with the Cube, drawing off its power for all those weapons Fury was building.

The general public doesn't have the details, but it's not unreasonable to think there's a connection.

You really wanna take what Ross and Thanos are saying as true?

*gestures broadly*

Why are you believing THE BAD GUY

Because that’s how people are these days 😓

I think you’re looking at a very black and white view of it it’s the Avengers’ fault or not. I don’t think Ross or anybody is telling them that they blow up cities for fun or on purpose. Just that there should be some degree of accountability from somebody somewhere for when stuff like Iron Man and Hulk tearing through an entire South African city in Age of Ultron happens. Was it really Tony’s “fault”? Was it really Bruce’s “fault”? Not necessarily. But who’s gonna pay for that? Who’s gonna account for everything? Who do I go to get any justice or recompense for because I lived in the city minding my own business and a car that the raging Hulk threw at Tony careened into my apartment building and smashed my wife’s head in? Thats why I find characters like Wanda, Zemo, etc interesting because they at least slightly touch on that.

Of course watching the movies knowing the characters up close and personal we know they’re doing what they have to do and are fully invested in protecting the Earth but in reality people would be fucking terrified of beings like the Hulk and Thor just being able to run around and do whatever they want. Ross makes a solid point in Civil War that none of the Avengers even know where the Hulk is. All they can do is just shrug their shoulders and go “idk, we lost him somewhere”. Is it “their fault”? No, but in the real world somebody would have to take accountability for that. A lot of you would be pushing for the Accords as well.

In theory the Accords would offer that, some official legal entity to officially represent them and their actions while allowing them to continue protecting the planet. Is that actually what the Accords would be used for, probably not.

I think this is actually why they made it a point to have Hulk and Thor off world for Civil War because in my opinion the argument “against” the Avengers becomes much more clear cut and dry, while the way they made the movie as it is now allowed it to be a much more grounded conflict centered on Steve and Tony and the differences in who they are as people.

I generally do agree that it’s mostly what happened in Age of Ultron that caused the biggest issues.

Anything notable that happens in the news is used to either spin in one direction or the other. Man dies on an ambulance because of years of eating McDonald's 3 times a day and loads of different drugs in his system? "WHAT THE AMBULANCE DID THAT COST THIS MAN HIS LIFE!"

Humans try to find answers and explain things and pose blame. It's just what they do.

{And when Ross mentions New York 2012, Washington D.C in Winter Soldier.}

Do you mean Civil War? Ross wasn’t in Winter Soldier.

I find that the fact that the Avengers were blamed in world for things not their fault by politicians and lay people a reality that is missed in a lot of movies.

This is how politics work. They find someone to blame.

People are always looking for someone or something to blame. In Avengers, Fury blames Thor and the Asgardians for SHIELD'S militant buildup. In Civil War, Vision sort of agrees with Ross, saying that the presence of the Avengers invites challenge. Doesn't make it correct, but its realistic. As far as most people know, aliens weren't invading the warth before superheroes started showing up

Ya, and they were about to blow up New York with nuke.

To be fair, Ultron was a pretty big fuck up.

yeah, this always bugged me too. perhaps the writing is to blame.

Take a look around the modern political landscape, this level of gaslighting is happening constantly.  Easily proven lies, but millions just eat it up.  For example, blaming Ukraine for Russia invading them. 

Of many crazy MCU events, these comments are absolutely believable 

To be fair Tony should have been in the raft after Age of Ultron not giving speeches at MIT.

I dislike that theme too. Whenever they do that, I will minus 1 point from final score of the movie.

It could he explained better. They just needed to use better examples. But they all happen because of “enhanced beings” or whatever.

They probably don’t like that Thor’s brother is the one waging the first war. The Hulk destroyed NY and loses control in Avengers, Wanda caused Hulk to kill a bunch of people, Stark made Ultron, Black Widow is basically a former war criminal. These people are all basically walking nukes.

Pretty sure avengers redeemed themselves after bringing everyone back. Cause everyone would know who did this because a minute later, aliens attscked avengers. Compound... so im happy

Probably because there's nobody else to blame. Loki was extradited back to Asgard after the Battle of NYC, and Alexander Pierce and the rest of the HYDRA coup crew were either killed or otherwise dealt with within hours of the battle at the Triskelion.

Like if I'm a New Yorker who lost my livelihood because of the Battle of NYC, I'm not gonna give a shit if it's technically Loki's fault, I'm blaming the Avengers for taking the fight there instead of somewhere more secluded.

People ITT are missing the point. Whether that unwarranted blame is "realistic" or not doesn't matter because the writers of the story WANTED us to believe that the blame was at least somewhat warranted, because it being somewhat warranted is the emotional core of Civil War. Tony's side has no moral standing if you acknowledged that actually yeah blaming the Avengers for New York and Sokovia makes absolutely zero sense and Tony is fucking things up for everyone purely because of his own projections. 

the one that doesn't make sense is Sokavia, both because why are they being blamed for a crazy AI doing something crazy and also because Whedon took great pains to show the Avengers trying to minimize civilian fatalities

Even though those were mentioned to justify the Sokovia accords, the name itself is proof the main reason behind them was because of Ultron destroying Sokovia and threatening global extinction with stolen Wakandan vibranium. Tony created Ultron simply out of paranoia of Thanos so the public was pretty pissed to find out they were responsible for creating him (Hank Pym showed in Ant Man his distaste for the Avengers when he said “They’re too busy dropping cities out of the sky” when Scott asks why he didn’t call them for help)

For starters authorities and government bodies don't like looking useless, thats what the avengers do to em, the whole winter soldier plot confirmed individuals outside of government jurisdiction are needed to keep those governments in check otherwise corruption can spread and what happened to shield, happens.

So they try to kill their credibility and standing in any way they can, blaming em and saying if they had worked for or with em it would have all been solved better.

Thats why they latch onto sokovia so hard, its their first real chamce at bringing heroes down a notch, without even having to manipulate optics.

Remember most of the world didn't see what we saw. Most of the world knows the avengers were here and my city is destroyed. Add to that some antisuper politicians and then it's alot he avengers fault

For one thing, the first Avengers threat was directly tied to the brother (adopted yes) of one of them.

For another Shield kinda was the government representative for the Supes, so once that fell not on my did it cause mass damage, not only did it spill the files on Black Widow (which probably caused way more public distrust than we give it credit for), but it also left a whole in the world government wondering who even should regulate and work alongside the Supes, which made people even more weary and distrusting of them.

Also, the accords were kinda needed if we're gonna be honest. The only reason we side against the accords is because we know the heroes on a personal level because we're the audience. In real life it would be terrifying having a bunch of elite assassins and super powered individuals just interfering whenever they feel it's right. Whatever side of the political spectrum you're on, imagine if somebody far on the opposite had powers and acted with them when they felt "was right", it's terrifying.

Storytellers win when we get so pissed about virtual reality situations 🥲😂,I found myself anxious after Quantamania thinking what is Kang gonna do😂

It still doesn’t make sense that other species of the Galaxy/Universe consider Earth a ‘backwater planet’ considering it was Earth that reversed the Blip, has standardised nano-technology and has some of the most powerful beings in the Universe just sort of hanging out. You’d expect to see pilgrimages from them to meet the saviours, offering tech and gifts as a thank you.

Nerfed versions on the hulk and thor.

Were you born yesterday?

I think it’s more of you didn’t stop the threat in time or even try to prevent it and you caused a scene, that we have to clean up, so your not good enough at your job type of thing. Basically the governments are finding ways to justify their actions to seek control, even though the government couldn’t of done a better job at preventing or stopping these events themselves.

art imitates life and vice versa

I still find it weird people blame Lagos and Ultron on the Avengers too.